Reentry at the Gun Judging....

[Roger Fisher]

Although they hung a couple ribbons on my latest effort at Chucks a thought crossed my mind about the feelings there regards a reentry.   Meaning the 'builder' takes the rifle or gun home and fixes some fixable thingees on her and re enters said piece the next July show to see if she places better.....

Has anyone out there heard the judges feeling on this?  Is it considered being the squeaky wheel that gets the grease or is it in good sportsmanship to do so.   

The aforementioned fowler turned out pretty nice and needs only  a few fixes which I should have noticed before.  Then again my plan is to shoot the $#*! outta her and she would end up getting much patina and crud in one year I do expect.  Maybe I should simply shoot my current girl!   Anybody??

[chuck-ia]

Just curious, what were your intentions when building this gun? chuck

[Berks Liberty]

I remember that very question was brought up during Alan Martin's and Ron Gable's seminar.  The answer was basically, why would you want to.  Basically is the judging for the perfect gun or to learn how and where to improve your skill.  They both went on the side of improve your skill when you build your next rifle.  I noticed your rifle at Dixon's and I would be proud to carry it anywhere.  I'm getting ready to build one for next year, and I'll take what they say to help with the next one. 

Jason

[Dale Halterman]

I re-entered my first pistol after fixing the fixable things the judges pointed out to make sure I knew what they were looking for before I built the next one. It didn't occur to me that this might not be allowed, but I can see where there might be objections now that you bring it up.

Funny thing is, it got a judges choice ribbon the first time with most of the points lost on craftsmanship. I made a new muzzle cap and sideplate, and straightened the trigger guard, and most of the craftsmanship points went away. But the second judge found a bunch of conformance points that the first judge let by, and it scored worse the second time anyway.

Dale H

[Mike Brooks]

I wouldn't worry over much about what the judges at Dixon's think of your work. Instead get one of the top builders in the field critique your work honestly. You'll be far ahead of the game at this point.

[Don Getz]

In all of my years of gunbuilding, and attending Dixon's Gunmakers Fair from the very begining, I have never entered a
gun into the judging.  There have always been points in their judging that I disagreed with, therefore,  just never did it.
I am far, far, from perfect, and am still learning.  I still enjoy it when Mark Wheland and Allen Martin come over to the shop
and tell me what they would do differently on my gun......I may or may not do what they say, and may even argue over
their recommendations, but it's still a lot of fun...........Don

[Roger Fisher]

Just curious, what were your intentions when building this gun? chuck

To shoot her instead of my current durs egg beastie

[PIKELAKE]

I entered a rifle at Dixons. It was something my wife prompted me to do. She told me , let them take a look and find out if you are on right track. I have no illusions of grandeur, my rifles will not hang in a museum or be souht after by collectors. I build them as a hobby and do the best I can. I won a judge's choice ribbon and was tickled. The score sheet for my gun was interesting. I was in agreement with almost everything that was marked off. I left a little gap at the end of the breech plug tang and they called me on it. I had not fired this rifle to close up this space. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, if there is a next time, I will scrutinize the heck out of it before I submit it. I read that someone had the opportunity to talk to the judges as to why certain things did or did'nt make the grade. We had to hit the road or I would have hung around to get some explanation. All in all it was wonderful weekend. I would like to thank everyone involved for all their hard work. I don't think I myself would re-enter this rifle even if I could fix some of my mistakes. The one I will build next....maybe.

[erdillonjr]

I thought you could only enter a gun one time. The next tear you must enter a different one. Maybe I am wrong but this how it was told to me. Ed

[jmforge]

What are the different judging categories at events like Dixons as far as guns, edges implements, accessories, etc?  Also, is your classification based on how many times you have entered something at the event or is there some other standard for "ringers" who have been making stuff for a while but have never submitted anything for judging?

[erdillonjr]

Ther are 3 catigorys At Dixons. Aprentice, journeyman. and master class. you can enter any class you want and take your chances. Once you win a blue ribbon in one class you have to step up to the next class. If you win a blue ribbon in journeyman. you must move up to master class. Ed

[Birddog6]

I left a little gap at the end of the breech plug tang and they called me on it. I had not fired this rifle to close up this space.  

They may be the judges, but these are still opinions.  Mine is you did it right, there is supposed to be a very slight gap at the end of the tang on the breechplug.....  well, unless you want to chance a split stock. Pack a lil Kiwi paste shoe wax in it & go on.......

If you won a ribbon at all there, I am sure it is a one fine rifle.............

As for re-entry, I don't know how they do it, but I would not be in favor of it. You do your best & enter it & it is what it is  Not take it back, fix things, judge it, take it back, fix more, rejudge it again, etc. Others coming from long distances would be of a disadvantage on this, IMHO and don't have the luxury of coming every year or coupld times a year, etc.   I would have to lean on One rifle entry One time. Try to do better next time & write down the issues the judges had with it.

[Roger Fisher]

I agree with Birddog on this.  Seems unfair to the other entries if we have our fixable errors pointed out by the same judges that would judge it again the next year then reenter the mistake 'free' rifle/gun the next years fair..!  I never had heard their feelings on that question in the 27 yrs of the reunion!

After all that extra ribbon or two would only make that rifle/gun worth 5 bucks or so more at our estate auction

[jimc2]

Roger I will only offer Barbara $50 apiece anyway   jim

[Michael]

Rodger,

I have to agree with Mike Brooks on this point. I would rather have Mark Silver, Wallace Gusler, Gary Brumfield, Brad Emig, etc. critique my work. I don't mean to slight any of the other FANTASTIC gun builders who work their craft so well!!!!!

I have entered guns for judging at Dixon's but the problem is all I get is a form with a bunch of numbers telling me how well I did a particular task on the gun. There is no personal input, I can't ask questions or get any further explanation about what the judges were thinking.

anyway just my opinion,

Michael

[Dale Halterman]

There is no personal input, I can't ask questions or get any further explanation about what the judges were thinking.

I have found that the judges were willing to talk to me and explain why they took points off, and I have overheard others doing the same. The trick is to catch them when they aren't busy.

Dale H

[rich pierce]

I have started to think that expectations are too high for the judging at Dixon's.  They bring their best experience to bear to help critique a piece whether it is a horn, gun, bag or knife.  There are no criteria that could be applied to all long guns, for example.  One of the challenges is that if you present a Bucks County rifle, sor example, judges will critique it according to the Bucks County originals THEY know- maybe not the one you used for inspiration, etc.  That's the best they can do.  it's probably better to think of any winner or loser piece as "that's how it got judged at Dixon's".

It's also important (but counter-intuitive) to realize they would downgrade many an original.  So if you make a close copy of a piece there is no guarantee that it will receive high marks even if you did a spectacular job of re-creating the original.

If you make an early-styled gun, they may well classify it as a jaeger and etc. when in fact it represents a transitional American rifle.  They do best at 1780-1820 Berks, Lehigh, Bucks, Lancaster pieces in my opinion because they've seen and handled more of these.

All of us want to win a ribbon more than we want to be criticized.  So folks will always be disappointed in subjective judging.

[Acer Saccharum]

As an apprentice judge, I see many of the points you guys are making as valid. I am just trying to learn the system, and my understanding of it at this point is certain to be flawed. 

This is a points off system, where every mistake is given a numerical value. Add up the points at the end, and the rifle with the fewest points off gets a better score.

A simpler gun has fewer places where points can be taken off. If there is no engraving or carving, then points cannot be taken off for those. You might think 'Ah-ha! here is a way to get a ribbon!' But if you really want to learn, you should be carving and engraving, and be willing to have your work scrutinized.

The judges work from their lifelong experience handling and studying long rifles. In the judging, they try to limit the field in order to get through the volume of guns entered. They must specialize and limit the criteria to make a standard by which the guns can be categorized and evaluated. This is like judging men or women. Not everyone will be happy with the outcome.

You may have a perfect dead ringer copy of an original, and still not place well. Why?

For Traditional class:
For example, you make a Lehigh. Your closed end nosecap is just like the original. Why have they taken off points? Because it doesn't fit their standard Lehigh pattern with an open nosecap. You argue that it is just like the original. According to the patterns, a Bucks County should have the thumbnails at the fore and aft guard extensions, and at the extension of the buttplate. But the original that you copied didn't have thumbnails, so you make it faithfully. Guess what? Serious points off.

The judges can't know every variation of Lehigh or Bucks made, so they impose a 'standard'. If you deviate from this, you will get penalized for it. This seems strange and counter intuitive, but there it is. If you really want to deviate from this 'norm', then provide pictures of the original you copied, then there can be no question. I don't know what this norm is, and I hope to some day be able to explain it better.

Technical points mean a lot, whether contemporary class or traditional. This is all about fit up, gaps along the barrel and inletting of parts, aligning your parts correctly, fit and finish. Pretty mechanical, but steps that will go a long way toward a quality gun. This is where I was employed, in the Apprentice section of the judging.

I am still not sure what emphasis/de-emphasis is placed on a precarved stock. If you have a simple gun, and the architecture is spot-on(easier to do with a pre-carve), you are going a long way toward a ribbon. Again, this sounds like 'what do I need to do to beat the system?' rather than 'what can I learn to improve my skills'.

I have put my thoughts down as I perceive the system, and I stand to be corrected if need be. I will talk with the other judges to clear my understanding of the process.

Thanks for your ear.

Tom

[jmforge]

Okay, Tom. you just created more questions. What exactly is the difference between traditional and contemporary?  What kinds of things are not allowed in the contemporary category?  For a knifemaker like me, that would be as much a question about materials as about design.

[Acer Saccharum]

I figured whatever I wrote, the questions would come.   No worries, Jmf.

Let me try to explain, to the best of my understanding.

Traditional:
The 'schools' of gun styles apply to the 'Traditional Class'. This means a Lancaster, a Lehigh, a Bucks Cty, Bedford, etc. But be aware, that if you go outside of the judges' idea of what constitutes the 'norm' for a certain school, you will not score well. This is an area which I need to explore with the judges to expand my understanding of the process. example: a closed nosecap on a Lehigh is points off, even when you know, AND the judges know, some originals had them. This is the most difficult class, I believe, to do well in.

Contemporary:
if you are going to mix a Lancaster guard with a Reading buttplate, or carve something on your gun that does not belong with the school that the gun is styled in, you should enter it as Contemporary. Obviously, the 'fantasy gun' should be in this class, anything with architecture or decoration that did not exist back in the day.

There is a tendency to think the ribbons will enhance the 'sell-ability' of my work. However, I believe to intent of this event is to EDUCATE. To point out where your gun falls short in certain areas, not to help you get more bucks for your banger.

A Mr. Wheland said in his very quiet and unassuming way, that you should use the system to learn how to build. Once you know how, leave the ribbons for the up and coming builders.

For me, that was an eye opener. This, too, is how I see it.

Warning: This response may generate more questions.

Tom

[Jim Chambers]

"Once you know how, leave the ribbons to the up and coming  gunmakers."
Basically, I agree with this statement.  I feel kind of bad for having entered a piece in this year's judging.  However, as I was picking up my pistol one of the main Judges came up and thanked me for entering it.  He said that all of the better makers like Bill Shipman, Mark Wheland, Alan Martin, etc. should be entering pieces.  He basically said that without the top makers entering, the up and coming makers have less to strive for.  Kind of like asking Jimmy Johnson, Tony Stuart, and Kyle Bush to not enter the race next Sunday so that some of the lesser skilled drivers could have a chance to win.  I guess that is one way of looking at it, but I still feel bad for having entered (at the request of the owner of the pistol) because I know some guys work their butts off all year to have something they hope will win a ribbon.  Ribbons surely mean a lot more to those guys than they do to someone like me who has had probably more than his fair share of publicity over the years.  I'm not apologizing for winning this year, but don't expect me to enter something every year.  Just some of my random thoughts thrown in for discussion.

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim, that is a great point, and one that I overlooked. I did not, however, overlook your pistol. Very nicely appointed, engraved, and carved. It is indeed something to strive for. I do indeed get inspiration from events like this.

Everyone has their own set of expectations. Each person has their own take on the event. It's good to hear the variety in viewpoints.

[Berks Liberty]

Jim,

I see what you are saying....If I'm mistaken you entered your pistol under the Master Category, right? A piece like yours is what I would expect to be in the Master Category.  If I was looking for only a ribbon then I would build something that would be Master quality.  I am planning on kick starting my building with the rifle parts I have.  I am also planning on building a rifle to enter next year.  But without the Masters producing quality work, what sets the bar? Or should I say who?  I think if your doing this stuff you really have to look deep down inside and figure out what is more important.  Learning, Educating, Winning, or just having fun.  I like them all but I want to Learn, have fun doing it and educate when the time comes.  Winning to me is last if ever.  I come away with more, when those who have more experience compliment me on what I have done.  Just my two cents.  I look at your work and those who produce beautiful pieces as the bar I want to reach, so keep me motivated. 

Jason

[Tom Currie]

A couple of thoughts from an apprentice:

The " points off " system is a bit frustrating because the more decorative techniques you apply to your rifle just opens yourself up for more points off. That alone however would never limit me in what I am trying to build and what techniques I apply. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's just what it is.

Regarding judging : And while I didnt agree  with them about some " points off " and comments, I wouldnt want their job either.  They give up a good day or better of the Fair to do their best I'm sure. It's subjective of course and all gaps, crooked lines and flaws aside, some rifles are going to appeal to them more than others,  just as they do to the rest of us. It would be a shame to not have judging be a part of the Fair. My hat's off to them for the effort they put in.

And lastly while I didn't particulairly fair as well with the judges as I'd hoped, the feed back I received from ALR members was just as helpful and gratifying.

[t.caster]

Acer, can you explain where the "Judges Choice" ribbon falls in the scheme of things?
That's assuming they still give them out. I haven't been there since 1990.