Smallbores challenges...

[Skychief]

It seems to me that when I shoot my 45, 50, or 54 rifles I seldomly have unexplained fliers.   That being said, my 36 shooting tends to have a few suprises along the way, most of the time.   Even with very deliberate and repetitious  loading and bore conditioning on my part, tiny groups with zero fliers out of the bunch, are harder to come by than with the larger bores.   This is not a complaint....I actually find myself heading to the range with the smaller bore very  often as I love the pursuit of overcoming the challenge!

The shooting of which I speak takes place from a bench, not offhand.


Has anyone else found the same to be true in their shooting of 36 caliber prb and smaller?

[BrownBear]

I wonder if this is related:  I find .350 and .310 balls a lot more challenging to cast consistently.  Very small fluctuations in weight have much larger consequences on paper with small balls than with larger ones.  I suspect the challenges are just as large for Hornady and Speer when swaging small  RB's.  Checking them on the scale, I see lots of variation there, too.

When really worried about the tiniest groups, I now weigh the balls, selecting the heaviest from either cast or swaged on the assumption that they'll have the least likelihood of small voids.  Of course, I don't really know how to check conveniently for "roundness" if I can call it that, but I also suspect that variations in the form, even when weights are identical, could have as much impact.  Certainly more in small balls than big ones.

Idle speculation on my part because you might already be going to this level of care.  But in my limited testing, the scale has told the tale of my fliers.

[Skychief]

Thanks for your thoughts BrownBear.   I have not weighed any of my .36 caliber rb's.   For a while I did weigh my 45's and 50's before a match, but, after a bit of "shade tree" experimentation, I found it moot for the most part at 25 and 50 yards.   As far as the smaller roundballs though...a grain or two would be a lot bigger percentage of the balls mass.    This is a variable I will play with for the smaller caliber.   Thanks for your help.

I still hope to hear from more of you!

[erdillonjr]

Small calibers are very wind prone. The slightes breeze pushs them around. Watch the wind. Ed

[SCLoyalist]

Skychief,  patching or lube could be the culprit.  What do you use for lube and patching for your 36?
An occasional off-centered pre-cut patch is a possibility, as is lube failure resulting in a blown patch.  If you haven't already,  finding and examining a dozen or so shot patches and checking their condition might tell you something.

What load are you using in your 36? Cast or swaged balls, pre-cut patches or cutting at muzzle?  Is there any pattern to the flyers when they happen (i.e. always high, always low, left-right?)? 

Good luck, SCL

[northmn]

Consider that variations diminish with larger bores.  Powder measures do not yield equal charges with every measure.  It helps to tap the measure and use a cutoff funnel type but you still get a couple of grains variation.  The same for RB differences which can include minor differences in diameter depending on the heat levels when casting. The powder to ball weight ratio can vary more in a smaller bore with these variations with greater velocity variations.  In QC we have a term called stacked tolerances where a peg at minimum allowable variance can be put into a hole with maximum allowable variances to give a greater than desired gap.  Your flyers are likely due to that type of situation.  Such as a light ball with a greater powder charge.  I found the 32's to be a little fussy when I shot them.  Possibly another reason larger bores seem to shoot tighter at longer ranges. 

DP

[Daryl]

With cast bullet or balls, the larger the bore, the greater the accuracy potential due to the larger bore being less demanding of perfect projectiles. Of course, with size, recoil then begins to play a part, balancing built-in accuracy with the shooter's capabilities of tolerance.

Your powder measure and horn also effect accuracy in smaller bores than in large ones, due to the smaller bores being effected with smaller and smaller variations in charge weight.  A small hole in the horn or flask for pouring, will dribble powder more evenly into the measure, dropping charges more accurately.  Too, the smaller the measure's diameter, the more accurate the charge thrown.  In powder charge testing, I've found a .40" to .45" hole to drop charges up to 100gr. of powder within 1.0gr., high throw to low, while a 5/8" to 3/4" tapered hole measure increases the error shot to shot up to several grs. or more.

 The horn and bone measures certainly look nice, but accurate, they aren't. For serious accuracy work, one must either weigh charges or use a measure that throws constant charges with small error shot to shot- a small bored measure does this.  .38/55 cases, trimmed for volume, rim turned off and screw-eye in the flash-hole for the thong, throws charges within a grain for use in the .40 and .45 rifle. The new .32 will demand an even smaller measure, and a constriction in the horn to throw even more accurate charges, although 1gr. variation is probably OK. Also,the smaller measure makes getting the charge into the bore, without spillage an easier task.

This doesn't take into consideration the pressure differences made by smaller and smaller bores, where increased pressure demands tighter and tighter ball and patch combinations to seal the powder gasses behind the ball, preventing gas cutting and it's effect on accuracy.

[Levy]

This is a very interesting discussion.  Generally speaking everything has to be more perfect for the smaller bores to shoot well.  The lack of mass in the bullet is working against you.  Any deformity in the ball is more critical (weight, shape) than for a larger bore.  Something that hasn't been mentioned so far is the sprue or casting gate on the surface of cast bullets (to me this is an aberration on the surface of the ball).  The alignment of the casting gate with the axis of the bore when loaded probably has more effect on the small bore than the larger bore.  I don't want to speak for woodsrunner, but I know that he tested the difference between cast bullets weighing the same with swaged bullets of the same diameter whose weights varied considerably.  All of his powder charges were weighed.  He found that the swaged bullets shot the best in his flintlock squirrel rifle (.32 cal.).  In my opinion, the difference may have been caused by the alignment of the sprue.  Another thought on cast bullets is that we usually attribute weight differences to voids or air bubbles in the ball.  Do we know that the same is true or even possible with swaged bullets?  I haven't done any testing, but prefer swaged bullets in smallbores so that I don't have to worry about sprue alignment when loading.

James Levy

[northmn]

The size of the sprue does get larger in relation to the ball size in small bores to permit casting.  While we load sprue up, I do not believe I have been able to achieve perfect alignment doing so. 

DP

[Daryl]

Absolutely, the sprue can cause innacuracy if not aligned. It isn't as critical as the base, which must be perfect, but off-centre-weight at teh nose due to off-centred spures will cause greater problems, the smaller the bore.

Taylor doesn't take any care or much care when aligning the sprre & thinks it is of moot importance , however in deliberate matches, off sticks or the bench, he doesn't do well & freely admits this fact. We're lucky he shoots this way, believe me, as he is capable of shooting to the accuracy of the rifle and load, when shooting offhand .  If his loading was more exact and capable of shooting into 1/2" at 50 yards, I'd take up golf. Due to his sloppiness at loading, such isn't the case and I'll continue to be competitive.

[Colonial Riflesmith]

Hi All,
I shoot .32, .45, .50, rifled, and a .75 musket. I Mold all my balls out of wheel weights. I never have the issues that y'all are mentioning. However, reading some of the other topics, most of you guys seem to favor heavy loads. I use light loads compaired to what I've read here. Example, in my .50 I use 65gr 2f for both hunting and target. For my .32 I use 35gr 3f. I alway use a horn or antler measuer. I never have an accuracy issue. Perhaps there is another factor that has been overlooked.

[northmn]

35 grains is hardly a light load in a 32.  When one talks about accuracy really you need to have a reference.  I quit using 32's at target matches because they died after 50 yards.  Someone will come out and claim a 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards with one, but that had to be a very still day and likely the best group of the day.  Over time, I found the 32's wanting at matches.  They were great at 25 yard luck match stuff, but at bullseyes started to fizzle. The 40 was a lot better but I still found mine slightly fussy.  The 45's and bigger seemed to be more versatile in load selection as I used about 40 to 45 grains of 3f in mine for 25-50 yard luck match stuff and 60 for serious work.  I don not see many folks comment on using light weights at chunk matches nor were they all that good for me off of X sticks.

DP

[Colonial Riflesmith]

My old grandpappy taught me start with 1 gr. per cal. and work your load from there. It usually ends up +/- 20%. I found this to be true. I don't change my load for target or hunting. I practice as I hunt. Same load every shot, regardless.  For me, I hunt more than I target.
When I mantioned that I read that some of you guys shoot a large load, I read 120gr. from a .50 cal. WOW. I've never shot a load that large, so I wouldn't know about that.

[david50]

in my .32 i shoot a hand cast .310 ball .10patch lubed with TOW mink oil over 20gr of Goex 3fff  i use an antler powder measure and load from a bullet board and dont really pay much attention to wich way the spur is pointing.she is deadly accurate out to 35-40 yrds and i can usually get six or seven,sometimes as many as ten shots before having to wipe for fouling. my point is,i just dont seem to have the problems you fellas have brought up. mind you i only use it for small game hunting not targets and would'nt attempt long range shots with this load. just my 2 cents

[Candle Snuffer]

Though I've never shot anything less then a .40 caliber, I do feel that the smaller .36 & .32 calibers are more prone to consistant bore preasure (shot to shot) then the larger calibers are - starting with the .45...

With my .40 caliber Ed Rayl barrel with its 1 in 72 twist, bore preasure is not so much an issue from shot to shot using a spit patch.  This barrel likes a heavy load upwards of 65 grains, and will work fine with as little as 35 grains I have found out over the years.

[northmn]

Small ball actually may be too easy for the powder to launch.  My 25 ball weigh in at 23-24 grains, a 50 at about 180.  The math states that bore diameter surface area increases at the square of the radius, the volume at the cube.  Double the bore diameter and you get 4 X the surface area and 8X the volume as in the example of the 25/50 (A 500 ball likely would weigh in close to 190 grains).  Conversly a smaller ball has more surface area to volume and moves easier.  3f is probably a fairly large granulation for a small bore and is not as efficient as it is in a 40-45.  As to the one grain of powder for bore size, that holds for the mid calibers like 45-54.  A 58 is very light at 58 grains and a 32 works very well at about 25 grains.  Overloading makes a lot of noise and fouling and little performance.

DP

[Skychief]

I am enjoying the thoughtful replies everybody.    Thanks for you insights.

[Colonial Riflesmith]

I agree on all points NMN, But you still have to have starting point, and 1 gr. per cal. is as good a place as any to start. Every rifle is different, as is every shooter. What works for me, will not work for someone else. I did have a plains rifle in .32 with a rather short barrel that liked a lite load of about 25gr. Any more and who knows where the ball would go. The rifle I currently use the 35gr. in has a 42" barrel, and it likes that load.

[northmn]

Another point on charging is that a hunting weight charge is about one half the ball weight.  This puts a 45 at about 65 grains which is what many use for deer hunting.  As the bore size increases there is a tendency to go down a bit.  Dan Dpharsis uses a 16 gauge rifle and does not use 220 grains whcih would be about half.  A 32 ball weighs in at about 50 grains (I used to shoot 319's in mine) 25 grains is about half.  Any of these rules of thumb tend to apply to a narrower range of more common calibers such as 40-50. They give accurate loads, with the 54 you will have an accurate load but a pretty mild one for bigger game. 
I do not disagree that you may see some heavy loads.  We have been brainwashed into thinking we need more power.  Half the ball weight is about all I have ever used.  When I chronographed my 50 percussion I got very little increase between 80 and 90 grains of 3f so cut back to 3f.  It was still pushing 1900 fps.  The bigger bores can do the job and shoot relatively flat at 1600 fps or so.  One gent comments that 80 grains of 2f and a round ball out of his 58 kills deer very nicley. My 32 would shred the head of a snowshoe rabbit with a 20 grain load and tear a squrrel in half.  I actually get less damage to small game with a 30 grain load out of my 40.  I also got very little gain in trajectory above 25 grains.  My 32s had 42 inch barrels and won a few matches.

DP

[Candle Snuffer]

Speaking of hunting loads, I use 65 grains of 3f in my .45,,, and 85 grains of 2f in my .54...  I shoot the same target load as I do hunting load.

There was a time (about 20 years ago) that I use to shoot lighter target loads, and I was running adjustable rear sights at the time.   Come hunting season I would beef the load up, and would re'zero.  

I stopped doing this on what I felt was some good advise at the time, and that was;

Shoot the same load all the time (hunting load), and learn how that one singlular load reacts in all shooting conditions.  Which IMHO turned out to be good advise as I eventually switched all my rear sights to fixed sights since I wasn't adjusting the rear sight any longer.  

I learned that a good strong load will shoot pretty much the same point of aim from 25 and 50 yards.  At 100 yards I just shade the shot a bit high (3-4 inches) and I'm still in the kill zone for deer size game, and in the black on an 8 Ring Black - 100 Yard NMLRA Target.

Perhaps not considered heavy loads in my .45 & .54 by other's standards, these loads have worked great for me.
  

[northmn]

I used to sight in a 100 yards with a hunting load then reduce up close.  That being said I think there is a lot to be said for using one load.  A very good shot and hunter I used to know used 70 grains of 3f in his CVA Mountain Rifle.  He also shot about 30 deer with it the last time I talked to him.  All with the same load.  He shot that load at paper and luck match stuff.  Never a top winner but he wasn't all bad either and would win once in a while on an individual target. 
70 grains is not all that hot of a load.  I think that we have been brainwashed into thinking we need more power than we do or extra "killing power"  My experience has been over the last 40 some years and a few dear that there seems to be a point where extra power just wastes more meat.  Its like with small bores.  A 22 short is good enough for about any small game animal we hunt, yet the classic squirrel rifles in ML's are considerably more powerful and while they will kill a bigger animal, they may lack certain desirable performance standards like leaving a decent blood trail.  That's why I bought a Rayl 25 barrel.

DP 

DP

[Colonial Riflesmith]

Hi NMN, It seems we think along the same lines when it comes to charges. Just a different way to get there. I like your idea of 1/2 the ball weight. Sounds about right. I sight in at 75 yds with my 50 because of the terrain where I live. Mountains and thick forrest. It's rare to have to shoot farther than that. I use 65gr. of 2f in it. I'm like CS, I hunt and target with the same load. Always have. I believe that you practice as you hunt. I never did understand the heavy load theory. I've never clocked my ball. I use 55gr 3f in my .45. Last year I shot a deer at about 75 yds. as it was running away from me at an angle. The ball entered the right rear leg, bounced off the bone, went into the innards and bounced off the spine right between the straps, down through the chest and out the front. Apparently, my charge is plenty powerful and very accurate. By the way, I mold all my balls out of used wheel weights.

[northmn]

I shot a deer in the neck and hit the spinal column with a 90 grain 3f load in the 50 up very close. Never found an exit hole.  Personally I think the load was hot enough to totally flatten the ball and possibly make it fragment, although soft lead isn't supposed to do that.  A lighter load may have gone through.  Doesn't matter as venison is venison, but a hit on the shoulder bone???  WW seem to be used for hunting loads by others that like penetration.  I almost bought 5 pounds of hardened  #3 buckshot for my 25 to see if that would be less nasty on small game.  TOW claimed they are pure lead.  I have cut back on the 50 and the 54 after using the chronograph and think that 90 grains of 2f in my 54 may be plenty.  I do get longer shots but plan on a strategy change so that I can shorten them to 50-75 at most, preferably more like 30-40. 

DP

[Colonial Riflesmith]

I like the harder ball that WW gives me. It's dense with mountain laurals here. I've had a ball go thru a 2" mountain laural branch then go thru the ribs and still kill the deer. The ball was still in tact. A soft lead ball will not do that.

[Skychief]

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