Author Topic: Reading Patches  (Read 4126 times)

Offline ToddCook

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Reading Patches
« on: April 15, 2020, 02:29:39 AM »
I'm new to flintlocks so I'm deep in the learning curve. After reading about wet/tight patches I went to the range today with some .018 ticking wet with olive oil( as much as they could hold without dripping). Green Mtn. barrel, .54 with .530 ball and .018 patch, 90gr. ffg. I fired 9 shots without swabbing between. A couple of things I noticed: zero misfires or hangfires, the gun was going off like a caplock. I shot a better group than I have( 35 yards- it's not great but for me it's improvement). The ball was loading fine without wiping EXCEPT for the last half inch or so. I had to really lean on it to seat it on the charge. I recovered some of the patches but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. Any opinions?




Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2020, 03:16:57 AM »
Got a few blown patches it looks like. Patches too thin for that RB. You should try .020 or thicker. Experts will chime in soon to expound.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2020, 03:49:43 AM »
Hi Todd: I have seen worse but I think you might try some different lube and thicker patches just for science and research reasons. I,m thinking that the last half inch of hard loading might be from a crust ring forming there from using the lube your using. Move out to 50 yds and change your lube and patch and keep track of all results and you will find out what your gun likes the best.  Forgot to mention that you can check the crown of the muzzle and smooth it up some, this will help in getting tighter loades started.

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2020, 04:24:48 AM »
A green mountain won’t have a rough barrel, that’s just about guaranteed.

Try .535s and maybe some water based lube. If that doesn’t work, do what the others recommend. Are you located in a dry place? I am, and without a water based lube, I get a crud ring pretty bad.

The patch is okay if the edges are frayed but they should be complete. Hold the patches up and if you see holes or tears in it that’s not good either.

Online Daryl

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2020, 05:42:44 AM »
Todd- in my opinion, judging by the brown, heavy brown and brown streaks to the outside of the patch, you are not getting a good seal.

The cuts you see are likely from a machine-cup muzzle crown. The lands are cutting the patch when loading. All of these observations mean

you are very close to a sealing load for the powder charge you are using
. More powder will blow more patches, simple as that. A tighter seal

by using a thicker patch might not be possible until you smooth the crown on the muzzle.  I am glad to see you using FFG powder.  FFFG will create

even more pressure even if loaded down to 75 or 80gr., which is likely the same velocity as you are getting with 90gr. 2F.  2F will give less pressure

at ANY given velocity.  I find better accuracy even in my .50, using 2F rather than 3F.

So- conclusions:  re-crown the muzzle. It is easy, then there will be no more cutting of the patches on the lands when loading. The combination is close

but a slightly thicker (10oz. denim) patch will help, or using a .535" ball and the same .018" patch. That should do it.

Again, you are close.  The dirty in the bottom of the barrel, is due to blow-by at the instant of ignition, usually.  That your patches are wet, yet still scorched

so badly, even in the middle, shows the olive oil sucks as a patch lube - in your gun.  Track's Mink Oil, Neetsfoot Oil, your own spit, WWWF or windshield washer fluid all

do a better job.

Note: water based (includes spit) are bad for hunting purposes - they will promote a rusted ring where the ball sits.

A little emery, or wet/dry (I like 320 grit) in the muzzle, pushed by the end of your thumb, rotate your wrist, turn the barrel now and then- every 15 seconds or so,

and in 1 minute you are done.  Shove a bit of patch material into the muzzle to catch stone and metal grindings, then pull it out when done.

Machine cut crown



emery'd crown



method




Daryl

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Offline ToddCook

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2020, 06:02:35 AM »
I see what you mean. I'll try that muzzle treatment, and I've got some neatsfoot oil I'll try too. This is what I have now.


Offline Marcruger

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2020, 04:11:29 PM »
I personally don't like pillow ticking as it seems to me to be too loose of a weave.  I like a very densely woven 100% cotton canvas.  I think the .018 thickness would be fine if you go up .005 to a .535 ball.  Otherwise, go to a slightly thicker patch.  I use Hoppe's Blackpowder BP Lube.  Pretty slimey stuff and seems to work great. 

Good news, you have my top choice in barrels (Green Mountain).  Very accurate and generally very unfussy about what they will shoot well.  Bet you'll love your barrel with time.  The firing line at the Friendship shoot is filled with GM barrels. 

You are also very smart to read those patches.  I read all of mine I can find, continuously.  Hold them up to the sun after firing.  If you can see light, go for a better patching cloth.  Other than some light edge fraying and color change, they should look like they did before firing. 

I hope this helps.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline recurve

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2020, 05:22:23 PM »




Denim 10oz from Joanne fabrics after wash &dryer .020 & mutton lube and use a starter& jag on your ram rod smaller than the bore(45 for 50, 50for 54) I found I was cutting the patches when loading with a tight jag/short starter fit went to under sized and cutting(those little holes on patches)went away. also scotch bright/steel wool barrel if new.



Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2020, 05:37:43 PM »
The smaller jag doesn't dent the ball?

Offline recurve

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2020, 07:05:54 PM »
load spur up seems to work ok .  I got the ideal from postings about pushing fouling down to into breach plug area using bore sized tight jag, tried the suggested smaller 45 for 50 and it worked, the jag runs the bore then turn to the right and seems to pull most fouling out and DID not cut the patch . seemed to improve my groups. Green mtn .50 barrel
the two high shots are before I regulated the rear sight lowering it for the 3 shot group
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 07:09:52 PM by recurve »

Offline Mike_StL

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2020, 07:13:40 PM »
I suspect that the crust ring is building up to the point that the patches are weakened at the breech.  I get better accuracy if I wipe when I notice the crust ring developing.  The crust restricts the bore and all that manhandling to get the ball seated on the powder weakens the patch leading to the shredding that you see.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2020, 09:23:58 PM »
Wish I could shoot like that
Andover, Vermont

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2020, 09:29:19 PM »
Me too Rich. That's good shooting for 50yds let alone 100yds.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2020, 11:44:56 PM »
What Daryl said.  I use mostly mink oil and Hoppes BP Lube.  Hoppes and similar "wet" lubes go a long way with preventing crud rings or at least mitigating them.  And as Marcruger does, I use also cotton canvas patches.   
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline recurve

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 04:04:20 AM »
It only took 2-3 years of trying different loads, goex 2+3 f swiss 2+ 3f powders 4-5 pounds, patches( I could cover a bed with the left over thinner pillow ticking), 500 plus round balls (And a ledsled) and a peep sight (home made filed by hand) and 6-7 different types of lube, spit, gato(mix wax bees wax tallow, windshield wash,...…. Now use mutton tallow from the butcher seems to work
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 07:33:49 PM by recurve »

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2020, 04:50:59 AM »
It only took 2-3 years of trying different loads, goex 2+3 f swiss 2+ 3f powders 4-5 pounds, patches( I could cover a bed with the left over thinner pillow ticking), 500 plus round balls (And a ledsled) and a peep sight (home made filed by hand)

Sounds about right. :)

Online Daryl

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2020, 07:47:43 PM »
It took Taylor and I a few years of experimenting, trying different patches, loads, etc, back in the early 70's to find the "formula" that now seems to
work in most rifles. Today, it is a matter of making a smoothly radiused crown, choosing a ball .010" undersized or more generally .005" undersize, a
10oz. or so denim patch, normal powder charge & we are usually "there".  It takes very little fiddling now - sometimes twice to the range, but generally
once will do it for any given rifle. Smooth bores can take a couple days if also testing shot.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 08:00:28 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline wolf

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2020, 07:41:29 PM »
kind of an old post but I will throw my 2 cents in on the crust ring, I was getting the same thing. after about 7 shots with my 40 rice barrel I had to beat the ball down the last inch. I was using swiss powder. I went to goex and goex ole eynsford and the problem was solved,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have never "harvested" a critter but I have killed quite a few,,,,,,,,,,,

Online Daryl

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Re: Reading Patches
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 02:08:55 AM »
I have heard that Swiss powder does that at certain pressure levels, different in different guns. I have no experience with that myself
as I only shoot Swiss powder in more modern suppository-type guns.
I have never had that with C&H, the old Dupont or Meteor powders. Today, I use Old Ensysford and GOEX- no fouling rings.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V