Author Topic: problem with trigger/lock  (Read 3075 times)

Offline borderdogs

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problem with trigger/lock
« on: April 18, 2020, 02:36:35 AM »
Hi Guys,
I have been building a  Hawken rifle and have the lock and trigger inlet but for some reason when I pull the hammer back it notches fine but once I pull the trigger and the lock releases when I pull the hammer back it will not notch and I can't set the the set trigger or pull the trigger. The trigger works fine outside and so does the lock but set in the stock no go after the first set.

I looked in the inlet for the lock and the bar is clear of any wood. When I pull the lock and put some inlet black on areas I thought might bind I dont see anything or any interference.

So I am at a loss. I have the barrel inlet and the butt plate and started working on barrel lugs but I really have to get get this sorted out. Looking for advise.
Thanks,
Rob 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2020, 02:47:59 AM »
It may be that the rear trigger bar where it contacts the sear is too high and needs to be very slightly filed or ground down. Here’s a trick to try: cut out a couple pieces of Kleenex box thick cardboard that fits easily in the trigger mortise, for and aft of the trigger bars. Put the triggers in and try again.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Rich

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2020, 02:53:35 AM »
When testing, make sure you have the lock bolts installed. Then, I would smoke the entire lock internals and look for interference. My guess is that the tip of the tumbler (where the main spring rests) is hitting some wood.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2020, 03:05:37 AM »
Thanks for the quick replies. I was thinking the rear trigger bar could be too high but was reluctant to take any material off. I will try the box card trick and see how that works. On the lock I had the bolts in but I will smoke the lock to see if there is any interference. Good advice and very much appreciated!
Thanks,
Rob

Offline Maineshops

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2020, 03:03:46 PM »
I had a similar problem. I put a little ball of play dough or modeling clay on the sear bar or trigger bar and then gently set it in and that showed me how close I was. That works for me in other problem areas as well... Dan

Offline EC121

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2020, 03:25:40 PM »
Install the triggers and push forward on the rear trigger.  You should be able to feel the trigger move a little and hit the sear bar.  If it is against the bar , you won't feel any clearance.  May be time for a screw under the mainspring.
Brice Stultz

greybeard

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2020, 09:50:53 PM »
this is not rocket science.. use your depth guage on your dial calipers and measure the depth to the sear bar.   now with the other end of your depth guage measure how high the triggers are. adjust accordinley!!

      Bob

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 07:23:37 PM »
I think Bob is suggesting that the sear bar is bottoming in the hole you made for it, especially once you pull it in tightly with the lock screws.  It is for certain that it is wood inference that is causing this issue, whether at the bottom of the hole, or around the triggers.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 08:20:18 PM »
Thanks again for the advice I really appreciate the help. I checked the hole for the bar and it was clear but I made it a little larger so now if there was interference there isnt anymore. I measured the bottom of the lock plate where it sits below the sear bar and it is .245". I needed to remove around .150" so filed the trigger bars down to just slightly above .245". Now installing the triggers and lock it notches in half cock whether I pull the set trigger or not but only notches in the full cock when the trigger is set before. If I put the hammer back without pulling the set trigger first it will not notch in position although it almost does. I suspect if I remove a little more material on the bars that should get me there.
Rob

greybeard

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2020, 02:19:48 AM »
I think Bob is suggesting that the sear bar is bottoming in the hole you made for it, especially once you pull it in tightly with the lock screws.  It is for certain that it is wood inference that is causing this issue, whether at the bottom of the hole, or around the triggers.
No Taylor. You do not measure to the bottom of the hole that you made for the sear, you measure to the sear its self. Bob

greybeard

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2020, 06:21:27 AM »
I think Bob is suggesting that the sear bar is bottoming in the hole you made for it, especially once you pull it in tightly with the lock screws.  It is for certain that it is wood inference that is causing this issue, whether at the bottom of the hole, or around the triggers.
No Taylor. You do not measure to the bottom of the hole that you made for the sear, you measure to the sear its self. Bob
Sorry Taylor .. I miss read your responce,  Bob

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2020, 06:57:55 PM »
No worries...just trying to clarify.

To adjust how much that rear trigger is pushed up against the sear bar while at rest, I remove steel either from the bottom contact point of the mainspring or from the seat on which the spring rests on the back trigger.  This creates a trigger that 'floats' and is clear of the sear arm always.  The spring's tension is what kicks the trigger up to trip the sear.  But the trigger does not have to be, nor should be, in contact with the sear arm when the trigger is upset.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2020, 09:05:50 PM »
Taylor,
I am having trouble understanding how you would take steel off the mainspring and float the sear arm. I filed the rear trigger so that when I "set" that trigger it didnt push the sear bar off. Then I filed the front trigger down to the point that it sat below the bar but it still isnt right.
Rob

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2020, 01:25:42 AM »
To clarify my confusion, The trigger mainspring has a screw to adjust tension so even with the screw would it still be necessary to file spring?
Thanks,
Rob

Offline smallpatch

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2020, 01:27:37 AM »
Rob,
Taylor explained it well.
The problem is when the trigger is NOT set.

The front trigger has very little to do with anything except a latch for the rear trigger.  Any pressure on the rear trigger will cause the front of that bar to come up, and cause pressure on the sear.
You can ease that pressure by doing as Taylor said, OR install a screw through the trigger plate that does the same thing.
If it already has a screw, run itintill the problem stops.
This is why we ask for pics of these issues.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2020, 02:45:56 AM »
Right, I probably should have posted a picture. I was having trouble visualizing what was being explained. I have an L & R Hawken trigger set with the straight front trigger there is a screw through the trigger mainspring and a set screw through the trigger plate I wasnt sure of their relationship or how much to file off the trigger bars. Tightening or loosening that screw had a big influence on how hard or easy it is to set the back trigger.
 
Appreciate the explanation SP.
Rob

Offline heinz

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2020, 05:07:17 PM »
To embellish what Taylor said:  The double set trigger throws the large bolster on the top of the rear trigger at the sear bar to set it off.  There should be zero contact between the rear set trigger/bolster and the sear bar at rest when the trigger is unset.

A curious thought is this launching action of the set trigger to sear bar may consume as much time as the hammer fall in the lock.  I wonder if anyone has timed that?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 04:11:16 AM by heinz »
kind regards, heinz

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2020, 07:47:57 PM »
Rob:  I'll attack this from a different angle.  But first, the screw you see on your L && R triggers is the adjustment for the let-off, not for adjusting the contact of the mainspring on the rear trigger.
Now, with the triggers unset, the mainspring is in contact with the seat on the back end of the rear trigger, forcing the trigger's bar up into the air.  This is the part of the trigger that fires the lock.  On L & R's triggers, there is a lot of steel in the triggers that can be ground away to clear the sear bar, but sometimes, some work has to be done to the mainspring and/or the seat on the back of the rear trigger.  Careful filing or grinding can be used to remove metal from the seat on the trigger so that the spring no longer presses on the trigger while it is at rest (unset).  This will allow the rear trigger to rotate and 'float' with it's forward extension sitting much lower than when the spring is pressing down hard on it.  In this way, it will clear the sear arm so that the lock can be cycled without setting the triggers.  Another way to achieve this clearance, yet maintain a very powerful functioning mainspring, is to remove metal either from the tip of the mainspring, basically providing the same affect, or from the bottom of the spring in the area of the attaching screw.  Changing that base angle very slightly can tip the spring so that it clears the seat of the trigger, again allowing the trigger to rest with it's forward extension lower in the gun, clearing the sear arm.
I think some drawings might explain this better.  I'll see what I can come up with, but right now, I have to get to my build.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2020, 01:17:22 AM »
Thanks Taylor, I messed with it a little this afternoon and been reading the section on triggers in the book Gunsmiths of Glenville County get a better understanding on them. I appreciate your explanation on this, I have another rifle that has the same trigger set and I was thinking of taking this set out and comparing them to the set I am using in my build. This L & R trigger set has that screw in the spring but it also has a set screw in the plate that sits under the bend in the spring.
Rob

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2020, 02:58:24 AM »
On these double set triggers, the little screw on the bottom between the triggers adjust the amount of engagement of the two triggers. Screw it in and you will have less engagement.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 03:21:59 AM »
SG, Yes I know what that screw is but what I was talking about is the set screw which is black and is through the trigger plate but sits below the trigger mainspring near where the spring ends and is behind the set trigger. This screw engages the trigger mainspring from underneath. As Smallpatch said, pictures are good I plan to take some. Incidentally, I have the trigger screwed in as well as the lock and I can get it to work ok by messing with the screw on the trigger mainspring by loosening and tightening it.
I will take some pictures and post them soon, I really appreciate all the comments and advice!
Rob
 

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2020, 01:03:04 AM »
Here is an update on the trigger issue I have been having I plan on posting pictures shortly I have had some issues getting the pictures from my phone to the computer.

As Taylor has said, there is a lot of metal on the trigger bars to be removed. So I pulled the set out of the other Hawken full stock I have and used it to see just how much has to be removed. I filed first the set trigger bar and then the front trigger and kept putting them back together and putting them in the stock with the lock all screwed together to try it out. Right now I can get the front trigger to trip the lock at full cock. I can set the rear trigger and pull the hammer to full cock and trip it with the front trigger. But if I pull the hammer to full cock and try to set the rear trigger it will release the sear either partially to half cock or trip completely.

The way the triggers sit when screwed in with the lock in place with the lock uncocked and the triggers at rest the bars are just barely in contact with the trigger bars and I suspect that is where my problem is. Probably a little more metal has to be removed from the front trigger bar. I figure it was a good place to stop before I took any more metal of the trigger bar.

Any suggestions would be mighty helpful!
Thanks,
Rob 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2020, 01:11:24 AM »
I'm going to wait 'til you place pictures Rob.  Diagnosis can then be much more directed.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Rich

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2020, 02:58:44 AM »
Rich Pierce's suggestion of putting a temporary shim (cardboard) under the trigger plate to see how much lower the triggerbars need to be should have answered the question. What happened when you did that? If it still didn't work, add more cardboard. Try cycling the lock without the trigger installed, but the lock installed with the lock bolts. If it works without issue and the triggers work without issue, the problem is in the engagement of the trigger and the lock. It might be that your sear bar is not a one position sear and may come to rest at different places at rest, full cock and half cock. Also remember that when the rear trigger is pulled, the trigger bar on the front trigger needs room to rise a little as it engages the rear trigger.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: problem with trigger/lock
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2020, 03:00:39 AM »
Here are some pictures of the triggers I filed, the trigger set that I am working on and the trigger set I pulled from another rifle.

The first picture is the trigger set outside of the plate not filed:



This is a picture of the trigger set I am working on as filed




This is the trigger sets one from the rifle I pulled (dark set) and the one I am working my set as filed



This is the set I am working on with a new set of triggers installed and below are the triggers that I filed.



Another picture of the trigger set with new triggers and the ones I filed.

It had seemed that the top of the settrigger was what was contacting the sear bar. So I filed a flat and brought it down hence a slight angle. This did not work so with the new set of triggers I filed it flat and now they operate as described on the last post I made. I think I need to file the front trigger a little more to so I can get the set trigger to set and not release the sear when pulled. I am not sure though and this is where my problem is.

Yes Rich, I did try the cardboard shims and and came up with a a figure of .180" where it worked and that was what I had marked on the front trigger but the only way I could get it to trip was to pull the set trigger then pull the front trigger to trip the sear. So I bought a new front trigger to start over.

I know its not rocket science and it is a simple relationship sorry if I am making it more complicated than it should be. But again I appreciate the help
Thanks,
Rob


« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 03:20:50 AM by borderdogs »