Dovetail in the waist screw up

[Potsy]

I've got a couple rifles I've dug out along with my tools since I'm at home during the 'rona shutdown.  I've got one rifle about 70% done (a Tip Curtis kit that I've have for quite a while) and a "Virginia" that I bought parts for.  I'm pretty slow and life and work keep getting in the way.  And about 5 years ago I made a "screw up", got discouraged, and pretty much hung it up for a while.

On my Virginia barrel (Rice 44" C weight .54), I decided one evening to go ahead and dovetail in my barrel lugs.  I laid them out where I wanted them on paper (I KNEW not to dovetail in at the waist, but thought I'd just solder one there, on the surface).  Got my dovetails filed in, went to bed, sat up at 2:00 a.m. and realized I had cut a dovetail in the waist!!!  I just gave it up for a long time.

Fast forward 5 years and I've dug it all back out (I do piddle on smaller stuff like knives every now and again, it wasn't like all my tools were in storage) and was looking at the barrel.  Best I can tell, I sunk the dovetail about .060" or so.  Which (assuming a .540 groove dia.) leaves about .075" or so of barrel wall.  Given that it's 31" down the barrel, and compared to the hole I'm gonna eventually drill a for the vent liner where all the pressure happens, is it THAT big of a deal?

I guess what I'm asking is, should I proceed?  Or cut it off and try to use it on a "tapered" barrel build?

Thought about asking on here for years, just hated to admit to the world I did something that dumb.......

Thanks!

[TommyG]

Others with more knowledge will hopefully reply.  I too screwed this up on my first build.  I followed advice from a well published book on building and sunk my waist dovetail to around .060.  It was on a 31" .54 cal. rice barrel.  I haven't had any problems with it and use it every hunting season if I am going into rough country or doing deer drives as it was my first build and if I need a walking stick it doubles as that.  Shoots pretty good though.  Since then I make all my own lugs out of .040 sheet brass and the waist I either solder on or make from .040 and file the base down to .025 if I'm going to dovetail it.

[smallpatch]

Realize that you also have rifling depth to deal with. Another .015" could be a problem.
However, probably pretty low pressure area. 
Is it worth it? 

[smylee grouch]

This has been done before and some were able to salvage the barrel because the cut wasn,t too deep and some just scraped the barrel or shortened it. Has any one ever filled the dove tail up with weld and dressed it down? Would the heat ruin the steel,s quality to the point of being unsafe? Just curious.

[Potsy]

I kicked around the weld idea, but as the fracture in the metal would still be there, I'm doubtful.  If used as is, it will be full of solder and lug, not that it would hold much. 

I do know that I've seen some pictures of fowlers (originals) that were absolutely paper thin at the muzzle.  And those were old barrels, not new modern steel.

I wish I knew what bore/groove diameter was on the barrel.  Tried to measure with my calipers, but didn't want to scratch anything up (in case I keep it) so I was pretty tender about it.  I didn't count grooves, but I guess it is an odd number as every time I tried to position the calipers, I had one tooth on a land and the opposite on a groove.  A .530 ball would roll around in it, I do know that.

I did read off of Rice's site that they do rifle .016" deep on their round bottom rifling. 

Sooo, if the barrel is .815" at the dovetail, and I cut the dovetail .060", and if it's .540" bore, with .016 grooves, best I can math out, that'd leave about .065" under the rifling groove.  Though as I said, I'm not sure what the actual bore/groove diameter is.

Like I've said before, I can't imagine that the vent liner is much thicker than that, with a lot more pressure against it (though there's no ball running through there).

I've also wondered, while Rice's machining seems consistent, would a new barrel match (with maybe a slight degree of fitting) my barrel channel (Dave Keck did it, if I'm remembering right)?  I suppose I could rough in a new breech lug to fit the inletting that's already there.  I was going to glass that in anyway a)for strength and b)to cover up my lackluster inletting of the tang.

[Pukka Bundook]

I'd fit an iron or steel lug in the dovetail and solder it in place, then before stocking it, I'd tie it to a saw -horse and give it a whirl with a full charge a couple of times.  If it's all good, don't worry about it. If all's Not good, you can shorten it if you want.
Pressure is low up there, very low in fact. 

Just my tuppence  worth....

[rich pierce]

Gun for me? I’d do as Pukka said. Gun for sale? I’d get a new barrel.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I assume you are going to fill the dovetailed slot with a dovetailed lug, right?  Also, assuming you don't make an ill fitted hash of the job needing solder to hold it in place and fill gaps, you should not have a problem.  If you cannot fit a lug properly, you might have a problem. 

dave

[Clowdis]

The pressure 31" up the barrel is a lot lower than it is at the breech, so I wouldn't even consider throwing it away. Look at barrel thickness on fowlers and muskets of the period and you'll see that there just isn't a lot of steel around the bore that far up.

[little joe]

Get Rice,s thoughts, shoot 2ff and don,t overload, target vs. hunting.

[Dennis Glazener]

I'd fit an iron or steel lug in the dovetail and solder it in place, then before stocking it, I'd tie it to a saw -horse and give it a whirl with a full charge a couple of times.  If it's all good, don't worry about it. If all's Not good, you can shorten it if you want.
Pressure is low up there, very low in fact. 

Just my tuppence  worth....

If it was mine this is what I would do, would not think about throwing it out if it were for me to use. Would not sell it unless buyer knew the whole story (after proofing barrel).
Dennus

[Pukka Bundook]

Dennis,

Yes a Properly fit And soldered lug will materially strengthen the area.

I may get into hot water for writing this, but our old gunsmith back in the UK used to solder little diamond patches to barrels, to cover holes where they had rusted through.  Never heard of one blowing off, and they'd turn up at farm sales now and then.
He was doing these less than well-off farmers a service by keeping their old guns running.

Fred used to say that the shot was going out "Yon end that-so fast, that it wouldn't bother about that little patch".
I one time as a lad owned a double by G. E Lewis. Had a hole in one barrel half way down.
Lovely old gun, and wanted to use it, so I Glued up the hole with Araldite epoxy. (!)
It never blew out and I used it for years. (In the end I soldered it up, and never any bother)
I was young and daft then.
I do Not recommend Anyone doing this!...Or solding a little patch over holes in barrels!
But, It Does put into perspective the low pressures when we are talking about, when we get  towards the muzzle end.

Best,
Richard.

[Potsy]

Figured I'd at least get Rice's opinion on the topic, though being the manufacturer, I know what they'd tell me on this barrel, and I wouldn't blame them.  I am curious as to their thoughts on existing inlet vs. new barrel.

I've eyeballed it to death and mulled on it off and on for five years or so.  I think I'll go ahead and solder the lug, inlet the one lug and lock plate, drill in the touch hole liner and proof it.

I have a "horse" I can tie it to.  Wouldn't do anything insane as far as proofing, but I'm guessing running 120grn. of FF Goex would be the absolute most I could ever see even wanting to shoot out of it.  It may not even see that much in real life, but it will be a hunting rifle, so I'm not seeing it being fed a strict diet of super light loads either.  Run a dozen though it and see what happens.  I don't really fret it blowing out, but am more concerned about a "walnut", so I'll measure the outside pretty thoroughly before and after. Obviously, being as "safe" as possible while doing all this.

If it doesn't work, it won't get thrown out.  I'll have someone cut it and re-crown it (or maybe try it myself).  I'd probably have to figure out how to re-breach it, but I'm thinking it could be a Hawken or English flint build.

If it were ever sold, there would be full disclosure.  But I doubt I'd ever sell it.  Nephew migh inheret it, but he'd know the story.

FWIW, my Mossberg 835 is .060 at the muzzle without the choke tube.  And I'm betting Mossberg figured those guns would be shot at some point or another with no choke tube (though likely not on purpose).

BTW, Thanks for all the advice and any and all opinions are very much appreciated!

[Marcruger]

One bit of good news is that Jason can replicate the outside dimensions of that barrel for a replacement.  God Bless,  Marc

[Frank]

This is why I always have the barrel supplier  cut the dovetails. It is worth the additional cost.

[AsMs]

All,

I made the same mistake a couple of weeks ago. Not thinking I dovetailed into the waste of a Rice EDL .62. The waste measures 13/16. .31 plus .016 equals .326. Take that from .406 and you get .08 between the outer wall and the rifling. Under lug is .05. This left .03 or a hair less than 1/32 of an inch. Not great but still not the problem. While driving the under lug, which I believe may have been from harder steel than the barrel was made from, I hit the lug on a not so square angle and drove the edge of the lug down into the softer metal of the barrel in this very thin area. Upon inspection of the bore I found a faint line in the rifling at the position of the lug. I knocked the lug back out and confirmed my suspicions I ruined the barrel. I considered having another barrel made but the added cost and time I was not interested in. I some thought I decided to cut the barrel off. This will give me a tapered 28” barrel. I will finish the rifle as if it was full length. I will age it and then finish the new muzzle as if an old rifle had been shortened by another gunsmith. After sawing off the barrel my inspection revealed all I suspected. There was still metal, but it was so thin that it pushed into the rifling. At least now the rifle will be safe to shoot. The rifle will be historically correct ie. the revenant rifle. Not something a gunsmith wants to do to one of his rifles but I believe even Ron Luckbill will agree this is the best option at this point. It will always remind me to slow down, do my math first. 

AsMs

[Jim Kibler]

I know this doesn't fix the problem, but underlugs only need to be .030 or so.  You can actually go even more shallow if you raise the dovetails at the ends with a cold chisel.  I see so many builders putting in deep dovetails.  No need, not like the originals and can cause problems.

All the best,
Jim

[jerrywh]

I would not be afraid to use that barrel, That is far enough down the barrel that most the pressure is exhausted. Besides the bullet is on it's way by then and is unlikely to stop and cause excess pressure at that point. The pressure on that specific point is almost nothing.  Look at how thin some of the fowler barrels were at that point. Probably only .030 not thicker than .060.  If your worried go proof it at about 175 grns. of ffg. It won't blow.

[mikeyfirelock]

Hmmmmm..........made me go back and measure the depths on the current project.    I ordered another barrel.  Probably just fine but after doing the math, this one will make 2 or 3 pistol barrels.  Better safe than sorry, especially when someone else will end up with your work.
When in doubt, err on the safe side.
Mikeyfirelock

[rich pierce]

Some of these barrels are a lot thinner in the waist than any originals I’ve ever seen or have seen measurements from. Folks want light rifles nowadays.

[Jim Kibler]

There are original guns with thin barrels.  Probably many more heavy ones though.  A couple that immediately come to mind are the brass barreled rifle and the woodsrunner rifle.  These have a pretty heavy profile and thin waist.

[Potsy]

I cleaned up the dovetail last night, the bottom of the dovetail was still a bit uneven.  So I cleaned it up a bit, being careful not to file past it's deepest point.  It still "dishes" a bit in the middle, most of the few I've done do this, I think it's where I'm not being careful and even enough with my initial hacksaw cuts.  Anyway, the dish is slight (you can just see some daylight).

I then started opening up the dovetail with my dovetail pusher, then remembered ASMS's post where he banged his way into the bore, so I quit whacking on it, and just filed the notch out a bit further with my safe side file.  I think the lesson there was, when you find yourself in a hole, quit digging..........

As far as alternate barrel uses, I really don't want the "longrifle that was cut down later".  I thought about cutting it down at the breech end till it was 1" accross the flats and maybe doing a light Hawken or English percussion gun of some sort, but that'd cut the barrel down around 26" overall.  Pretty stubby.  The back of the barrel is 1.065", so I suppose I could file a 1-1/8" Hawken or English flint breech down to match, though I don't think it would be doable with a 1-1/8" percussion breech, but flint would probably work.  Then, I realized that whatever I did, I'd still be dovetailing my front sight in RIGHT INTO THE WAIST OF THE BARELL!  I thought about a pistol barrel or two, but with a 1:66" twist, would it be remotely accurate?  Sooo, other than a tomato stake, I'm open to ideas on that front.

[jerrywh]

A few years ago I proofed a pistol barrel that was 12" long. The last 6" were only .032 thick as were a lot of the original French pistols and fowlers. That barrel was made of 1136 steel which is about the same as 12L14 in strength. I began with 50grns. of FFFG and kept increasing the load each firing until I got up to 150grns. I fired it twice with 150grns of fffg. and a patched round ball, After wards I checked it with a micrometer and it showed no signs of failure.  Personally I believe it would have stood 200grns. I still have that barrel.
  I'll bet  $500.00 your barrel will stand 300 grns of ffg a half dozen times with a round ball load.
 A dovetail slot is reinforced on each end and it is only thin in the very center. If your measurements are correct that barrel would not blow if it were down at the chamber.  But that's an iffy.
 Some original French guns would have scared you to death. They weren't even good steel.

[Justin Urbantas]

this is always an option if you're uncomfortable.
I believe it is a 16" barrel

[Potsy]

I don't really fret it blowing out, I fret a bulge or other "irregularity" in the rifling as a result of the thin spot more than anything, and it sounds like I likely don't have much to worry about.

I will proof it and go from there.

I do like the 16" gun more than I thought I would Justin!  That'd be handy in a treestand or small blind!