Barker-Whatley Flint Lock

[Notchy Bob]

Gentlemen (and the rest of you varmints, too...)

I'm thinking of having a 1950's-era target rifle built, in flintlock.  Sort of along the lines of these rifles:



The image, for those who are interested, is from a feature article about Don Coble in the April 1958 issue of Muzzle Blasts magazine.  Some of you older guys may have known him.  I was four years old in 1958, and never made his acquaintance, but I understand he was a great shooter and a nice guy.  The rifles pictured were two of his favorites.

I'm thinking of a 1-1/8" octagon barrel, maybe in .54 caliber.  I believe a barrel that size will need a pretty big lock, and I like the look of this one:



Track of the Wolf (from whom I borrowed that image) calls it a "Barker-Whatley Flint Lock."  The R.E. Davis website shows it as their Early Kentucky/American Fowler Flintlock.  Track of the Wolf says it has no fly in the tumbler, but Muzzleloader Builder's Supply has the lock, and they say "This updated lock now has a single position sear, and a fly has been added, so it can be used with double-set triggers if desired."

The style of the lock is virtually irrelevant for this rifle.  I just like English locks.  The rifle in question is a type that appeared to have been in fashion among competitive shooters in the 1950's, sort of a "proto-Modern" style. They look almost like wall guns.  People at that time were building with whatever parts they could get.  There were several top-notch barrel makers at the time, and I think Bob Roller was making his excellent locks by then, but most parts in general were harder to come by, and a lot of old parts were incorporated into new rifles.  I think the flintlock rifle in the first picture has an old Tower lock. 

The "Barker-Whatley" looks like it would do the job, provided it has a fly.  However, I don't think I've ever seen anything in print about anybody actually using this particular lock.  Do any of you have any first-hand experience with it?  Any comments with regard to function, reliability, durability, etc.?  Do the ones in current production really have a fly in the tumbler ?

Comments will be appreciated, and if there is something you would rather not say on the public forum, you can send a PM. 

Now, to find a builder willing to take on the project...

Best regards,

Notchy Bob 

[Stoner creek]

It did not have a fly the last time that I handled one.  You might want to contact Larry Zornes. He makes those locks and can tell you.

[rich pierce]

Thought I had one but it was a big Davis trade gun lock.

One thing to watch for on some Davis locks is the sear/sear hole/tumbler relationship results in a sear bar almost in the middle of the tail of the lock like this below. I made a new sear and sear spring on one of their contract rifle locks because it bugged me. Nonetheless the Davis locks I’ve had throw good sparks and function like locks made by other makers.

[smart dog]

Hi,
If you need a big English lock, I recommend Kibler's new round-faced English lock, Jim Chamber's round-faced English lock, or Chamber's early Ketland lock.  If you want speed, then I recommend Chambers late Ketland or Kibler's late flint English lock.  They are smaller but I suspect they will work fine even with a 1 1/8" barrel. 

dave

[heinz]

I would go with the Kibler for speed.  I think 1 1/8 is too small for the barrel.  Talk with whoever you chose for a barrel maker and tell them what you have in mind.  They will know what you need.

I would go for a 1 1/4 and a false muzzle.  You should be able to bring that into NMLRA "light bench rifle"  specs.

[Stoner creek]

I would go with the Kibler for speed.  I think 1 1/8 is too small for the barrel.  Talk with whoever you chose for a barrel maker and tell them what you have in mind.  They will know what you need.

I would go for a 1 1/4 and a false muzzle.  You should be able to bring that into NMLRA "light bench rifle"  specs.

Just get your wallet out. The Chambers lock is faster than any human that I know and priced reasonably as well. What more do you need?

[tfornicola]

Notchy Bob, You are correct, Don Coble was an amazing person and shooter. I too was only 4 yrs. old in 1958. During the late'70's and early '80's. I shot muzzleloaders with Don. We were part of the Liberty Township Muzzleloaders and shot once a month. Don was hard to match on bench and X-stick matches, but his true passion was bench rest. My best memories was drinking beer with him on his front porch and listening to him discuss shooting and building. Thanks for mentioning him---brought back good memories. Tom Fornicola

[heinz]

Chambers builds a fine lock.  I really like the Chambers Colonial for hunting rifles, they go off, even in the rain.  For a serious bench or chunk gun, you want speed like a Kibler English or a Bob Roller if you can find one.  Save your money on the stock wood.

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks to all of you for the responses and suggestions.  Chambers and Kibler locks were under consideration, but I was curious about the M&G Barker-Whatley lock.  It has been around for a long time, but you just don't hear much about them.  I think I will focus more on the locks from Kibler and Chambers.

I was thinking about a Rice barrel.  Their match-grade 1-1/8" barrels are $275, and the 1-1/4" are $300... Not a lot of difference in price, and maybe worth it for the added mass.  Adding a false muzzle, however, runs the pricetag up to $750.  I don't think I'm a good enough shot to benefit from the advantage of a false muzzle.  It was a great suggestion, though, and much appreciated.

I also enjoyed reading the recollections of Don Coble.  I never met him, but I remember reading about him.  He sounds like a great guy.  The NMLRA recently digitized all of the back issues of Muzzle Blasts and put them online.  I've been reading through them, and that sparked the interest in these rifles.  Benchrest was big in the fifties.  My dad had a Muzzle Blasts collection dating back to about 1950 or '51, and I spent hours reading them when I was a kid.  You can check out the digitized magazines at the NMLRA website.

Thanks!

Notchy Bob

[heinz]

Bob, I do not think the false muzzle does a whole lot to improve accuracy in itself.  It does save wear on a very square cut muzzle with little crown.  The bench rest fellas tend to shoot a lot.  Also makes it a bit easier to load a really tight ball and patch.  You can do almost as well with a properly crowned muzzle and a bullet started that matches the ball diameter.

You should try to hold your total weight under 14 pounds if it fits with the style you want.  That lets you shoot light bench, unlimited bench and buffaloe cross stick matches

[Jim Kibler]

If you want to build a 1950's era target rifle, you'll probably want to find the worst possible lock and use it    

Jim

[heinz]

Now Jim, most of those early flint bench guns have original English shotgun locks or tuned up Brown Bess locks. And a fare share of Bob Rollers by the early 60s.  Offhand rifles were a different story.

[TonyM]

Well, I have an earlier one from Track--no fly. And a later one from MBS with the fly and single position sear.
Like both, both spark plenty and shoot quick. Larry Z did the upgrade for Ryan at MBS to use on pistols.
Must have the one with the fly for set trigger of course, unless it is a single phase trigger like the old North Star that Curly made.
For what it's worth.
Tony

[Notchy Bob]

If you want to build a 1950's era target rifle, you'll probably want to find the worst possible lock and use it    

Jim

Funny! ...and probably correct!

I think there was a general paucity of good locks at that time, and the same could be said for most of the other parts needed to assemble a rifle.  I think people scrounged what they could get, which made for some interesting combinations of parts.  The article about Mr. Coble in Muzzle Blasts, which was illustrated with that photo of the two guns, indicated the rear sight on the percussion rifle was from a Krag. 

I do want a really good lock, though, and one from Mr. Kibler is under consideration.

Thanks to all who responded!

Notchy Bob

[tooguns]

Stump rifle
« on: March 23, 2011, 02:31:23 AM »
Quote
"I'm working from memory here so bear with me as this was 1997 or 1998.  Several years back a friend showed me a rifle that he called a stump rifle (chunk gun) that he had.  It had roughly a 1" streight octagon barrel of about 45 cal 40" long percussion with a lock from a front action SXS double.  The makers name was stamped in the top flat of the barrel using a small about 1/8 chisel to make the letters.  This had a full stock with a ramrod grove approximately 3 or 4" long.  The remainder of the forend was solid like the area in front of the lock on a regular long rifle with just the last few inches having a ramrod grove no thimbles.  Has anyone seen such a setup before?  If I can find this gun I will try to post pictures.  My friend died soon after showing me this gun and I have no idea what happened to it"

I ran across this a while back, typifies the conversation Not my post something I ran across