Hawken build advice needed

[Deuce50]

Hello all....  looking to start a hawken build, my first build, and I'm hoping to get some questions answered to get started.

First, a little background and some my thought process.  Thanks to this virus going around, I'm stuck at home with the baby while the wife is still going to work (ICU nurse)  so I have a TON of time on my hands WHILE she's working and even trying to somewhat distance myself from the wife when she's home.  I've been wanting to start building a flintlock for some years now and this seems like the perfect time!  I'm self employed now, but before that I spent 13 years as a machinist.  So measuring, layout, metal work, ect is nothing new to me. 
I want to build a hawken style (not exact replica) flintlock.  Half stock version and I'd like to do it from a blank.  With all this time on my hands I've read a ton of info on the subject and watched just about every Bill Raby build video on YouTube (love that guy, very instructional!).  I know building from a blank for a first build sounds crazy but I think I'm up to it.  For one its cheaper (been selling a few things here and there and i plan to buy parts a few at a time as i get the money).  Also I figure if I mess it up I'm only out roughly $60 I'd pay for a blank.

Thanks for bearing with me... 
1.  I'm thinking of going with a 15/16" 54 caliber barrel and cutting it to 32" for maneuverability and weight as this will be a hunting gun.  Any problems there?

2.  I'm planning on buying track of the wolf plans to use for cutting the blank and locating parts.  I believe their plans are for a 1  1 /8"  barrel.  Can I simply scale down the dimensions on the plans to account for a 15/16" barrel?

Thanks so much in advance!

[borderdogs]

Hi Deuce,
There are a ton of posts on Hawken rifles on this site and there are a lot of very helpful people with lots of experience building long rifles and Hawken rifles in particular. Hopefully some of them will comment on your plans. I started similar to what  you described I have a machinist background and I wanted to build a Hawken rifle. I built a kit back in 1980 but hadn't built a rifle since then. I wanted to build a full stock Hawken in .50 and most of the parts came from Pecontonica although I purchased other parts from Track, MLBS, Log Cabin Shop, and L & R. The best advise I can give you at least from my experience is take your time and think about what you are going to do at each step of the way. Also listen to what these guys on this site have to say they know what they are talking about. I would recommend the book Gunsmiths of Glenville County and I would buy the DVD Building the Hawken Rifle by Herschel House. He starts from a blank.

Its been a trial for me to build this Hawken rifle even though the first rifle I built nearly 40 years ago was a Hawken half-stock in .50. It doesn't seem that experience has been a lot of help keeping me from making mistakes.Of course I was a lot younger and had better eyes back then no excuse intended. I have made a lot of mistakes that have taken a lot of time and some new parts to figure out and fix. Although sometimes I get really frustrated and other times I have to walk away so its been a journey. Actually I plan on writing up a show and tell, probably a confession of all the mistakes I have made and post it here. I plan on making another Hawken full stock when I finish this one so this experience hasn't deterred me from building another rifle.

Check out Don Stiths St Louis Plains Rifle, Tiger Hunt Stocks, and a few other sites before you commit. And listen to what these guys have to say they have helped me a lot!
Best of luck,
Rob

 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

D50:  welcome to this site!  There is much to be gained here both in the way of information and most of all in inspiration.

I wouldn't build a Hawken plains rifle around anything smaller than a 1" barrel.  And a 1" x 54 cal at 32" is a very nicely balanced and not a heavy rifle...likely around 8 pounds depending on the density of the wood.

Using a set of blueprints like those from TOW is not a bad idea.  At the very least, make a profile drawing of your own before you start.  Take a sheet of Bristol Board paper and cut it in half, taping the pieces together lengthwise (tape on the back) draw your barrel profile...1" x 32".  Draw the breech too.  Make a template of the lock plate and position it on the drawing so that it is in the correct location according to the position of the vent, ie:  about 1/16" ahead of the liner.  Now, knowing where the sear arm sits, you can position the triggers.  Draw them in.  With that done now you can draw in your length of pull, your comb line and the buttplate.  The shape of the rifle will take evolve.  Refer to photos of original rifles and/or good contemporary ones, such as those that Herb builds.  You can draw in the position of the barrel tennons, the rod pipes and the under-rib, and even the sights, though I almost always leave the rear sight until the rifle is almost finished, so I can place it on the barrel in its optimal position.  I cannot over emphasize the importance of having a well thought out plan/blueprint that you will refer to over and over again during the build.  The time you invest in that now will save you headaches and frustration further along the building journey.

[Bill Raby]

   Next week I will post the last video in the Lancaster rifle series. After that comes a video series building an English rifle. It will be very similar to building a Hawken rifle.

   Cutting a barrel shorter should not be any problem.

   The plans are a great help. But you need to stop thinking like a machinists so much.You guys tend to be very precise and accurate. Let that go. The plans will be good for cutting the profile of the stock and generally how everything fits together. But the exact placement of the parts will depend on the parts. The flash hole location determines the location of the lock. The sear determines the location of the trigger. Length of pull is distance from trigger to butt plate so location of butt plate is determined by location of the trigger. When you cut the stock blank be sure to leave a bit of extra wood so you have room to adjust.

   You think you can save money by working from a blank. Now thats funny!!! That only works the first time. Problem is that there are some very nice blanks out there that cost a whole lot of money. Won't be long before you spend more on a blank than the price of a pre-carve stock. Good idea to start with a $60 blank. That is going to have little if any figure. Makes things a lot simpler.

[Deuce50]

   Next week I will post the last video in the Lancaster rifle series. After that comes a video series building an English rifle. It will be very similar to building a Hawken rifle.

   Cutting a barrel shorter should not be any problem.

   The plans are a great help. But you need to stop thinking like a machinists so much.You guys tend to be very precise and accurate. Let that go. The plans will be good for cutting the profile of the stock and generally how everything fits together. But the exact placement of the parts will depend on the parts. The flash hole location determines the location of the lock. The sear determines the location of the trigger. Length of pull is distance from trigger to butt plate so location of butt plate is determined by location of the trigger. When you cut the stock blank be sure to leave a bit of extra wood so you have room to adjust.

   You think you can save money by working from a blank. Now thats funny!!! That only works the first time. Problem is that there are some very nice blanks out there that cost a whole lot of money. Won't be long before you spend more on a blank than the price of a pre-carve stock. Good idea to start with a $60 blank. That is going to have little if any figure. Makes things a lot simpler.

Wow THE Bill Raby!  Thanks for the advice!  I hear ya about letting the gun parts dictate location rather than a precise set of plans. 
Haha yes the first stock will be cheap but who knows after that.  Pecatonics River lists half stock blanks on their website as cheap as $45 for maple but I'm not sure how accurate that is.  Actually, I'm not sure if they're even open to sell me parts with all these virus closures.

Maybe it would be wise to go with a 1" barrel.  Is there a chart available that shows barrel weight by width and bore?

[Bill Raby]

   Don't worry so much about the weight. To get a lighter barrel go with a larger caliber. I would go with a tapered barrel on a Hawkin rifle instead of a straight one. Balance is going to make more of a difference than weight. If you cut shorter, cut at the breech end instead of muzzle. Lose more weight that way. Of course you would then have to adjust the size of the breech plug a bit. The next video series goes into a bit of detail making a breech plug match up.

[Deuce50]

   Don't worry so much about the weight. To get a lighter barrel go with a larger caliber. I would go with a tapered barrel on a Hawkin rifle instead of a straight one. Balance is going to make more of a difference than weight. If you cut shorter, cut at the breech end instead of muzzle. Lose more weight that way. Of course you would then have to adjust the size of the breech plug a bit. The next video series goes into a bit of detail making a breech plug match up.

Will you be using a hooked breech on the next build?  That's one thing that has me scratching my head a bit.  I read some where that you can super glue the two pieces together and inlet it that way with the barrel.
I like your idea of the tapered barrel.   I'll look into that.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Before you can even make a profile drawing or start cutting wood, you need to have all of your parts.  You have to have the breech plug fitted to the barrel and the tang fitted to the plug.  I solder mine together with lead solder and inlet the breech plug/tang as a unit after the barrel has been inlet.
I don't intend to get into a @#$$%&* match with Bill Raby, but I'm serious about having an accurate blue print drawing of your rifle.  The parts will dictate what the drawing looks like, and thus the rifle.  Without that, you are guessing and hoping.  Mine is not the only way, but it is my way, and it works for me.

[Deuce50]

Thanks for the advise D Taylor. 

Remember I have never built a rifle, but here's how I'm looking at it from watching several video series and any input is welcome on this...  if I buy TOTW plans, a blank, a barrel and a breech plug I am hoping to be able to get started.  The plans should give me the rough form to cut out, being sure to leave plenty of wood around.  Then fit the breech plug.  I am planning to building with no cast off so I am thinking I will be able to establish a center line and inlet the barrel and breech plug.  Then as finances permit, buy parts for the next few processes and proceed. 

Will I screw myself down the road if I start like this?  Again, the reason for this build and proceeding like this is that I have nothing but free time at this moment but not a ton of funds to throw at this.

[borderdogs]

Deuce,
I am using the Track plans for the fullstock Hawken flint. I use dividers to take off measurements and I have found that some dont match with the some of the parts I am using. For an example I believe that the trigger set on Tracks plans is a Ron Long set and although very close to the L & R set it isn't exact. I am also using a rifle I got from Brant Selb which is a full stock percussion and I take and compare the stock dimensions of the rifle and compare them to the Track plans and there are differences and sometime a fair bit. If you watch the Herschel House DVD on his Hawken he goes to a collector and handles and compares various original Hawken rifles from a collector. If I had the time and could do the same I would. The next best thing for me is to use very well made rifles as models with a set of plans. I lean on the dimensions I pull from the rifle but I need the set of plans too.

I would like to build from a plank or from Don's stock and parts sets but I know I am not there yet. I am learning a lot going though this build and I am sure the experience will help with my next rifle build.
Rob   

[Herb]

Deuce50-I've built more than 50 Hawkens, three flint and some from a blank.  My first advice- forget working a blank, you don't need that misery.  Get Track's stock HS-16-M1 for $84, which is shaped and inlet for 1-inch barrel only with 7/16" rod hole drilled.  It is in stock as of now.  They do have that in 15/16" barrel channel, but "expect 30 days".  I think they get stocks from Pecatonica and I have had the above stock (M-1, plain maple) ordered from them since March 12 and have no idea when I'll get it.  Are they even working?

Second- go with a one-inch .54 barrel, they have a 36" Green Mountain in stock.  Cut it to 32" or 31 1/8" like the Carson Hawken.  Why the 1"?  Because the breech plug and tang that is best for a flint Hawken is Track's Plug-FHG-16-3, with 3/4-16 threads.  You cannot fit that to a 15/16" barrel because they are tapped for a 5/8-18 plug.  Unless you as a machinist want to cut the breech off and drill and tap it 5/8-18- but you are at home.  (The 1" plug can be filed down to 15/16", I did that with a 15/16 H&H barrel tapped 3/4-16, for a light Hawken).  Track has all the parts in stock that you'll need.

Third- do not get Track's Hawken plans- they are out-sized, 14 5/8" length of pull, etc.  See my gun building posts about this.  Just click on my name and choose "show posts by user" and 40 some pages of my posts come up.  I replaced all my gun building photos, so you should find useful tips in there somewhere.

If you want, I can copy my Green River Rifle Works Hawken halfstock drawing and send it to you with a list of all the parts you will need.  All the parts are available at Track as of now. You'd be making a basic GRRW or Carson Hawken but in flint.  That shape and size rifle works very well, it is my favorite.
Costs you $10 for copying and postage, if you want. PM me if so.
   

[Bill Raby]

   I would lose any @#$$%&* match with  D. Taylor Sapergia. He has quite a lot more experience than I do. What you are seeing here is a difference in methods to get to the same goal. But I think that we are not very far apart. In the next video series I am making major modifications to a set of Track of the Wolf plans and show a bit of the process that I use. You need to start out with an accurate profile of the stock drawn out. You cannot get that without the parts that you will be using. I trace the outline of the stock on the blank and cut leaving extra wood around it. But I keep that outline in place. The extra wood leaves me some room for adjustment.
   D. Taylor Sapergia knows what he is talking about and you would do well to listen to him. The way that I do things in the videos is not the best way or the right way. It is just how I am doing it. What works for me may not work for you. All of us come from different backgrounds. I am working on the fourth video series now and I do things differently in each one. The trick is to figure out the way to do things that will work best for YOU.
   If you want to start without having all of the parts, there is a way. Get a copy of the printed Track of the Wolf catalog. All the parts are photographed at full size. You can trace them out and work up your plans from that. But there is one major problem with that. Parts are often out of stock and sometimes the wait for them to be back in stock can be very long. If you cut a blank for a certain barrel or butt plate and it goes out of stock before you get it you will either have to get a different part, that may not work with what you have already started, or wait a year or more for that part to be in stock again. I had a barrel on back order for 14 months once. I think at a minimum you will need the barrel breech plug, trigger, lock, and butt plate to get started. Probably the rib also.

[Deuce50]

   I would lose any @#$$%&* match with  D. Taylor Sapergia. He has quite a lot more experience than I do. What you are seeing here is a difference in methods to get to the same goal. But I think that we are not very far apart. In the next video series I am making major modifications to a set of Track of the Wolf plans and show a bit of the process that I use. You need to start out with an accurate profile of the stock drawn out. You cannot get that without the parts that you will be using. I trace the outline of the stock on the blank and cut leaving extra wood around it. But I keep that outline in place. The extra wood leaves me some room for adjustment.
   D. Taylor Sapergia knows what he is talking about and you would do well to listen to him. The way that I do things in the videos is not the best way or the right way. It is just how I am doing it. What works for me may not work for you. All of us come from different backgrounds. I am working on the fourth video series now and I do things differently in each one. The trick is to figure out the way to do things that will work best for YOU.
   If you want to start without having all of the parts, there is a way. Get a copy of the printed Track of the Wolf catalog. All the parts are photographed at full size. You can trace them out and work up your plans from that. But there is one major problem with that. Parts are often out of stock and sometimes the wait for them to be back in stock can be very long. If you cut a blank for a certain barrel or butt plate and it goes out of stock before you get it you will either have to get a different part, that may not work with what you have already started, or wait a year or more for that part to be in stock again. I had a barrel on back order for 14 months once. I think at a minimum you will need the barrel breech plug, trigger, lock, and butt plate to get started. Probably the rib also.

I like your idea of using their catalog to configure certain parts of the build before I buy them all.  Trouble is their catalog is listed as no longer available!  But I got to thinking about the lock....  I'm planning on using an L&R 900-D.  I currently have an L&R RPL03 that I upgraded to on my TC Renegade.  Does anyone know if the lock plate dimensions of these two locks are the same or real similar?

[J-team]

If you go to the TOW website, and select the part you are interested in, there is a tab marked "downloads".  Go there and there is a .pdf file of the printed catalog page with a full size pic.  Just print that off and you will have full size pic of any part that interest you.  Make sure you are printing 100%, not fit to page.

[Deuce50]

If you go to the TOW website, and select the part you are interested in, there is a tab marked "downloads".  Go there and there is a .pdf file of the printed catalog page with a full size pic.  Just print that off and you will have full size pic of any part that interest you.  Make sure you are printing 100%, not fit to page.

That's great!  Thanks alot!

[mikeyfirelock]

Don’t know what sort of literature you have, but definitely get either “Recreating the American longrifle” by Buchele. Or “Gunsmith of Grenville county.”    Preferably both.  I prefer working from a blank, but for a first time project, perhaps a pre carved  will simplify your project.  Just make sure the parts you use are suited for the precarved blank used.  I would suggest you take a good look at your work area.   Particularly do you have enough space and a suitable workbench......sturdy and stable with a good vise.  Then go for it.......it’s a great hobby, and you meet the most interesting folks.

[Deuce50]

Don’t know what sort of literature you have, but definitely get either “Recreating the American longrifle” by Buchele. Or “Gunsmith of Grenville county.”    Preferably both.  I prefer working from a blank, but for a first time project, perhaps a pre carved  will simplify your project.  Just make sure the parts you use are suited for the precarved blank used.  I would suggest you take a good look at your work area.   Particularly do you have enough space and a suitable workbench......sturdy and stable with a good vise.  Then go for it.......it’s a great hobby, and you meet the most interesting folks.

Thanks Mikey.  I do have Recreating the American Longrifle.  I've loosely read thru it several time. 

[smart dog]

Hi Deuce50,
Welcome to ALR.  Some of the most talented and knowledgeable muzzleloading gun makers contribute to this site. Herb and Taylor are extremely talented and knowledgeable makers and I urge you to listen to their advice.  They have built many high quality guns but they also have examined and handled many originals so they know what different styles of guns should look like.  A Hawken rifle is a challenging first project because it entails some difficult inletting, particularly the long breech tang and trigger plate, attaching a proper rib to the barrel, etc.  Most 1st time builders starting from a rough blank turn out guns that look like 2x4s with the corners rounded over.  Having machinist skills is a plus but I've seen plenty of guns from similarly trained folks that end up looking precisely like 2x4s with corners rounded over.  It is not enough to have skill with your hands.  You need to know what a gun should look like.  Plans help but they are 2 dimensional and it is hard to visualize the 3-D details that make or break a gun.  You need to either examine originals and well made contemporary guns or at least study photos of guns from really good makers like Taylor, and Herb.  Our virtual library has a large collection of photos of original guns, although I don't believe any Hawken rifles. I strongly urge you not to use many of the guns shown for sale on Track of the Wolf's website as guides. There are usually a few good ones but most are pretty poor examples of what they purport to be.  Their published plans are generally useful, however.  While on this site, I urge you to explore the search function when you have questions.  This site archives thousands of posts covering the majority of questions asked by new builders.  This site is also a great place to verify information you pick up from You Tube, which is not always reliable or accurate.

dave               

[Daniel Coats]

An area that is particularly difficult to inlet are the triggers without getting a gap in the front. This is because you are inletting on an inside curve. Look for this gap in pictures of some contemporary Hawken rifles and you will certainly see it. It's little details like this that really make or break a Hawken rifle.

[Craig Wilcox]

Deuce, I will add one more "WELCOME" to those above - we are all happy to have another muzzle-loading-building-shooting pal.
I am in the midst of building two ML, and I am about to add a third.  Being retired, I need "stuff" to do to keep me from wasting away.
The primary right now is a full-length Hawken, from Don Smith via another friend here.  It IS a fun, complex rifle to build.  And yes, I have a few gaps in the inletting.  I can fix them or leave them, although I would like to build the "perfect" FL Hawken, my old fingers and nerves don't always work right. So I do the best that I can.
By all means, do have a sturdy workbench with a darn good vise.  I am currently using a pattern-maker's vise, but I have also used others along the way.  The "Versa-Vise" works pretty well also.  Make a couple wooden jaws to avoid vise marks on your work.  A bit of inletting color, and a little brush to put it on the part you are inletting.  Some use inlet black, others use Prussian blue - they do the same thing, just in a different color.  I think that Bill Raby buys the black in 55 gallon drums.....
A few cutting tools are handy - keep them sharp enough that you wouldn't want to drop it on your toes.
Best of luck to ya, and always feel free to ask for help.

[Deuce50]

Thanks guys.  I keep hearing Hawkens are challenging but I'm still gonna give it a go.  Can't get good at it if I don't get started!  And again, while I've been dreaming of building my own flintlock for years, starting right now is as much to occupy all this time I find myself with lately.

I do have a sizeable, well lit, sturdy work bench.  Right now I just have a metalworking vise on it but I did make wood jaws for it.  As far as tools...  I have a ton of files from my machinist days,  I have a few good Swiss made chisels that I bought when I upgraded the lock and trigger on my current flintlock.  Also have a cheap set of palm chisels.  So I'm sure I'll need a few more chisels and gouges but I'll get them along the way.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37886.0

Above is a link that may help answer some of your questions, as well as give you some guidance.

[Deuce50]

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=37886.0

Above is a link that may help answer some of your questions, as well as give you some guidance.

Very nice work D Taylor.  I'm sure that'll be a handy reference when I get started.

[Daryl]

Welcome Deuce50 - a Hawken is a BIG challenge for a first rifle.
I agree wholeheartedly, that a 1"bl. is the way to go & not a 15/16".

[Deuce50]

Welcome Deuce50 - a Hawken is a BIG challenge for a first rifle.
I agree wholeheartedly, that a 1"bl. is the way to go & not a 15/16".

What is it that makes it so challenging?