Author Topic: Golden Means??  (Read 2484 times)

Offline jerrywh

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Golden Means??
« on: April 26, 2020, 07:54:06 PM »
Does anyone have any authentic references about the Golden Means from the 18th Century of before or has it been thought up of late???
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Offline Chowmi

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2020, 08:14:38 PM »
Jerry,
pretty sure it dates back to at least the Ancient Greek.  I don't have a reference for you, but will try to find it. 
Much of their architecture and sculpture conforms to the golden mean, so you might infer that it was a deliberate design choice, rather than a massive coincidence. 

I know that doesn't directly answer your question.  I'm in the middle of my daughter's birthday, I'll see what references I can find a bit later.

Norm
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Offline tallbear

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2020, 08:18:47 PM »
It's been used in art and architecture for centuries.While I hate to use Wikipedia as a resource a brief overview is here with footnotes for further review....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

Mitch

Offline StevenV

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2020, 09:33:41 PM »
Seeing Through the Eyes of Yesterday The Kentucky Rifle and the Golden Mean by Patrick Hallam. Patrick has since passed away but within the past year I wrote his wife in Ohio and she sent me a copy of the book . Hands down the most thorough book on the Golden Mean and flintlocks. This man took apart many originals and related the Golden Mean to them and this is in the book with drawings of the originals. If your interested in something like this and can't find it anywhere I let me know and I will get your Mrs. Hallam's address.         StevenV

Offline wpalongrifle

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2020, 09:37:03 PM »
He was a staple at Gunmakers Fair at Dixon's... Always had original rifles on hand to support his findings. I have a Couple copies, Both personalized and intriguing. I know they are still available.
 
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2020, 11:17:27 PM »
This subject always ends in a long and sometimes furious debate but has never been settled. In my opinion it is a attempt to reduce beauty into a mathematical equation.  I don't fit Raqual Welch or a beautiful rose. It doesn't fit nature either. No flowers or foliage will fit.  In most of the books I have read on it the equation never quite fits the example. Almost but not quite. I have compared at least 200 examples of long rifle carving to the Golden means
formula and never have found one to fit exactly.  If there was one that did there would be a thousand that didn't. As far As myself is concerned beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's it.  Designs that fit are made to fit starting with the formula it seems.  Too each his own.
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Offline Carl Young

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2020, 01:18:14 AM »
In the 17th & 18th centuries, the term "Golden Mean" often referred to a philosophical middle course between two extremes, as in "all things in moderation".

Jerry, it would sure break the monotony to see more photos of your work. Hope all is well with you.
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline P.Bigham

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2020, 01:35:31 AM »
Jerry I agree.  You can’t fit all art into a mathematical equation. It would all be the same and boring sometimes stepping out of the box or mundane will get more appreciation. 
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2020, 02:10:09 AM »
Found in natural creation. Thought used (or at least seen in their works) by the Greeks and even the Egyptians.  It saw active purposeful use during the renaissance and was termed "divine proportion".
Longrifles??? I doubt its purposeful use was employed but many of the most pleasing examples  exhibit the characteristics of the proportions just by the artful eye of the maker.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 03:17:37 AM by James Rogers »

Offline tallbear

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2020, 02:35:05 AM »
   I think the whole point of the "Golden mean" or "Golden ratio " is being missed. It not a hard or fast rule or box that art needs to fit into.Rather it is a tool like any other tool. It's a "ratio" that is know to be pleasing to the eye that is the starting point for design work.This ratio exists in nature and has been used in art and architecture for centuries ,of this there is no doubt.Some folks have a natural ability to see it and some of us have to work at it a little harder but it is there whether it was intended that way or not.It shows up too often in longrifles to dismiss it whether it's use was intentional or not.It's something that is certain;ly worth studying.

Mitch

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2020, 02:42:37 AM »
The reason it does not quite fit is that most people use 3:5, which is close, but not quite. A closer representation is 3:4.854, but still is not totally accurate because phi is an irrational number.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2020, 03:51:31 AM »
Hi,
It is ancient and derived from examination of natural objects and dates to the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.  Probably the Greeks, who idolized the beauty of natural forms promoted it the most effectively.  Moving through time, it became a prominent guide during the early Renaissance when classic Greek art forms were rediscovered .  But it is not a hard and fast rule for art.  In a sense, it is the "null" model or "straw man" from which to measure deviations and differences.  It is the basis for drawing correct looking perspective.  However, an artist may want to deviate from correct perspective to create a statement or feeling.  Think of the hundreds of great painters and sculptors who defied the rule to create feeling.  Think about the feeling of movement and excitement in the carved scrolls by George Eister and John Noll. They don't fit the "golden mean" model but they sure look great and suggest life and movement.  Often carvings adhering to strict golden mean proportions are static and dead.  You've seen one and you've seen them all.  A draftsman's or engineers idea of art.  The golden mean is a useful guide to proportions and then go from there as your artistic soul sees fit.  A word of warning , however, it is easier to hide within the constraints of golden mean proportions.  Your design and work will probably look comfortable and pretty nice.  It takes much more work to expand beyond it with much more risk.  You can create a horrible mess unless you really have the talent to make your hands do what your mind sees.

dave         
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 04:03:43 AM by smart dog »
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Offline 44-henry

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2020, 01:09:56 PM »
Volume two of The Journal of Historical Armsmaking has an article about the Golden Mean. It has been years since I read it, but it was good info.

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2020, 04:01:57 PM »
Jerry,

 a friend of mine clued me into a period furniture making book ( I'll look for the title, It's in his note if I can find it again ) that referenced how the Golden Mean was applied to the furniture
making process at the time. The gist was, while the 'mean' could be made to fit.. or everything made to fit it.. but It was more about developing a feel for the proportions?? Once you see the
ratio and such,, you can "naturally" design a piece that has flow..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2020, 05:48:33 PM »
Jerry,

 a friend of mine clued me into a period furniture making book ( I'll look for the title, It's in his note if I can find it again ) that referenced how the Golden Mean was applied to the furniture
making process at the time. The gist was, while the 'mean' could be made to fit.. or everything made to fit it.. but It was more about developing a feel for the proportions?? Once you see the
ratio and such,, you can "naturally" design a piece that has flow..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Not just furniture; my grandfather used to tell me about how barns were built using the Golden Mean; he just never used the phraseology. Barn builders and older, hand built houses used it for sure.

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Golden Means??
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2020, 06:25:02 PM »
The first time that I read about the golden mean, I was anxiously telling an old friend of mine about it. This fellow was one of the best untrained artist I've ever had the pleasure of associating with. He was good at any art form he attempted. After my explanation, he responded in his Southern drawl, that this is just "papotion"we have been doing this all the time. He then pulled a ruler out and proved it. So......
Bob
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