Author Topic: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?  (Read 8248 times)

Offline Bob McBride

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Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« on: April 30, 2020, 03:45:18 PM »
So, after never having been much interested in a trade gun I’ve come across a Type G painted in the Bumford style made by Jack Brooks that caught my fancy. I’ve never even given these a second look but between Mike Brooks painted guns the last few years and Wayne’s rifle line painted by his daughter I’ve gotten the bug. Question is, what bag and horn to carry with these? Kind of leaning toward an Eric Ewing bag of some sort and a NA type horn (There’s a nifty one on CLA by Sibley) but I’m not really thinking quill work.... Not trying to put together an NA set but perhaps something a ‘friendly with the NDNs White Eyes’ may have carried.

Thoughts?

Online rich pierce

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2020, 04:45:13 PM »
Given that trade guns were the least expensive guns available, a non NA not hooked up for a fine quilled bag would probably be carrying a simple, plain bag and horn. Even homespun. A simple one piece folded bag would work. This original is likely post 1820 by the flap (wild guess) but was simply laced up the sides. Looks like buttons or some arrangement were used to attach a strap to the back but have long since torn out. (Digging for pix; basically a big Lyman style construction wise)










Here’s another one that could be made simply, pix are probably from Art Riser’s blog.








« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 05:00:27 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2020, 05:39:58 PM »
Ok, I see. Simple, larger, but early. No patina, as the gun is as new. I've seen some pics of NAs posted lately carrying bags but i cant find them. They seemed to be simple affairs.. Would a quill bag be more on point for a very nice Brooks Type G? Not quite sure which route to take. Hard getting my mind around 'fancy', but then again, it is a painted gun.

Thanks for taking the time Rich.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 05:44:23 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2020, 06:17:52 PM »
Great Lakes twined Ojibway bag.  I was the first to make these and after wearing it around to events a bit, a few others started to show up.  They are time intensive to make.



Dave Kanger

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Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2020, 06:22:29 PM »
Bob, that is certainly a racy looking piece...lean and mean, and beautiful. Just me, but if I was outfitting that gun, I’d look native, opentop, either otterskin, or braintan/quilled. Maybe paired with a simple, quality horn, with a braintan/quilled strap. The gun deserves it.

Just my tupence worth.

Greg
“Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks” Thomas Jefferson

Online rich pierce

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2020, 06:30:52 PM »
Couple pix




Andover, Vermont

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2020, 07:22:50 PM »
Look into a Cherokee style bag. The one I saw once was quite attractive and would fit well
Psalms 144

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2020, 07:27:15 PM »
Yep, Clark, I think I'm coming around to an NA setup. A Cherokee bag would be appropriate for my location. Thanks TOF, Greg, and Rich for convincing me to go that way.... Now, research, and onto CLA to find a $300 quillwork horn strap, and god knows what for the bag....

Thanks fellers.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 07:31:09 PM by Bob McBride »

Online rich pierce

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2020, 07:39:22 PM »
You gotta get some of those tin cones hanging off so it can jingle a little!
Andover, Vermont

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2020, 07:55:37 PM »
I guess it comes down to whether you are portraying a Native American, someone out west, or an Eastern colonist with a trade gun.  My view is that a colonist with a trade gun would be carrying the simplest durable bag he could afford, equal to a trade gun. 

My thought is that a quilled and/or beaded bags would cost a colonist more than a simple leather folded bag. 

I'd start there first, with a "persona" before deciding.  I would also suggest that a simple trade gun would have a simple basic horn.  The fact that a trade gun has painting on it does not elevate it above a common gun in my view.  It's pretty, but not expensive and elaborate. 

By the way Rich, that painting of the Death of General Wolfe is a 1770 painting by Benjamin West, commemorating the 1759 Battle of Quebec, where General James Wolfe died.   The painting was done 11 years after the actual event, so most likely the artist was not on the battlefield.  The artist no doubt used "artistic license", so do not base your historical research on that one.  I'd asked about the same painting wondering about the painting on the trade gun.  That could be fictitious as well. 

Just my views, and I am guessing I'll have some folks gnashing teeth and waiting over those. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2020, 08:00:24 PM »
You gotta get some of those tin cones hanging off so it can jingle a little!

 ;D

I’ve already got several tiny Cathy Sibley and Lally House quillwork medicine bags to dangle too. Been filling them with squirrel teeth and stuff I’ve found on my walks in the woods. ...should help me shoot straighter....

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2020, 08:16:32 PM »
I guess it comes down to whether you are portraying a Native American, someone out west, or an Eastern colonist with a trade gun.  My view is that a colonist with a trade gun would be carrying the simplest durable bag he could afford, equal to a trade gun. 

My thought is that a quilled and/or beaded bags would cost a colonist more than a simple leather folded bag. 

I'd start there first, with a "persona" before deciding.  I would also suggest that a simple trade gun would have a simple basic horn.  The fact that a trade gun has painting on it does not elevate it above a common gun in my view.  It's pretty, but not expensive and elaborate. 

By the way Rich, that painting of the Death of General Wolfe is a 1770 painting by Benjamin West, commemorating the 1759 Battle of Quebec, where General James Wolfe died.   The painting was done 11 years after the actual event, so most likely the artist was not on the battlefield.  The artist no doubt used "artistic license", so do not base your historical research on that one.  I'd asked about the same painting wondering about the painting on the trade gun.  That could be fictitious as well. 

Just my views, and I am guessing I'll have some folks gnashing teeth and waiting over those. 

God Bless,   Marc

Excellent points Marc. Thanks. That’s sort of where I’m at right now. Thinking of Persona. I wouldn’t be portraying an NA. More SE Colonist who lived close to a village and dealt with them regularly in their environment, or hunted with them, sort of thing. So, a believable mishmash. I do like the idea of the bag being simple, like you say, but also, I’d like it to ‘go with the gun’ so to speak.... He may have had his NA buddy paint his gun because he admired the way a few of them did theirs, or traded for it with the NA for his own gun. Picked up a few trinkets like a medicine bag, or quilled horn strap or something. Lyman type simple one piece bag with some light NA embellishments sort of thing might be a good route.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness post...

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2020, 10:18:57 PM »
Ok. So I started the ball rolling talking to Scott Sibley. He’s going to make me something like this... His typical rev war/f&I style but red throated. Some native themed scrim.

I’ll build the rest around that.



« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 10:28:19 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 11:00:38 PM »
Neat bags.  Thanks for sharing the images.

Cory Joe Stewart

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 11:44:43 PM »
If all the casinos weren't shut down I could get you all the pictures of Cherokee items you'd want...

I really need to take a look and see what I can find out what weapons and accoutrements came here during the removal.

Mike

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2020, 11:48:55 PM »
Great Lakes twined Ojibway bag.  I was the first to make these and after wearing it around to events a bit, a few others started to show up.  They are time intensive to make.




I love that bag TOF.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 12:34:40 AM »
Quote
I love that bag TOF.
It can be yours.  I don't use it anymore.

The technology didn't really differ among tribes.  Sizes varied from small as a woman's purse to large ones attached to a tumpline for carrying loads when moving camp.  As an aside, they often unraveled old trade blankets to get the colored yarn to weave into the pattern. That could be done to this one somewhat akin to embroidery.

More later when I've the time.  I started one from homespun wool yarn dyed 4 different shades of yellow with a very subtle pattern that blended into each other.  However, it was so fine I never finished it.  After 6 months of evening work, I only had 4" done.  I have another bi-colored one still on the loom that I can take pics of.

Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2020, 03:05:39 AM »
I’d love to see the pics Dave. What size is the bag in this pic?

If anyone is interested I found an interesting article on these Great Lakes Twined bags. Some beautiful work...

http://www.woodlandindianedu.com/greatlakestwinedbags.html

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2020, 04:38:50 AM »
Bob,
The bag is 10" deep and 12" wide.  I bought the strap from a vendor at the Kalamazoo show....maybe CJ Wilde.  I recall I gave $40 for it.  The ends are woven into the bag.  I used to go to all the F&I War events around the Great Lakes when I lived there.  I see the young lady in the link you provided got her start in 2005.  I had done mine in the late 90's.  Maybe she saw mine and got the bug.

I can't find the quad colored wool one but did run across this one, obviously unfinished as well.  It's of the double weft, single warp variety.  If you look in the center, you can see where the design is barely starting to emerge.  It would have been a large diamond and on either side would have been solid green bands and then transitioned back into the same as the top.  Obviously, this craft isn't for someone with arthritic fingers.  This one is 10" wide.  They can be made any size by moving the position of one of the dowels.  I think there are a couple of people still making them, but I don't run with that group anymore.



Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2020, 03:22:04 PM »
I made one of those twined bags, a bit simpler than TOF's, last year. I like it but...

As far as I can tell, twined gun bags don't seem to have been used historically, and by the 18th century the use of twined bags in general -  for food storage and such - was mostly limited to the Great lakes area, at least east of the Mississippi. I'd love to be able to say otherwise, but after a lot of searching through museum catalogs, art books, etc., twined bags suitable for carrying gun stuff in and dating to the historic period are conspicuous by their absence. My conclusion is that they are probably a fantasy item, like hilted "rifleman's knives" and Woodbury school iron-mounted rifles. Which is a pity, 'cause I like mine, despite the problems with the dye I used....

Incidentally, I've never seen an 18th century Cherokee pouch, or really much of 18th century anything apart from a tomahawk and a strap. Really hard to find anything from the SE from that period. Quillwork is a northern thing, too, unless the they were trading for quills - no porcupines down here.

I'm not sure what period you are shooting for, but by 1775 the Five Civilized Tribes had hunted the deer in their territories out and were moving from an economy based on subsistence farming and market hunting to a more European-style agricultural system, complete a heavy dependence on African slaves (Gardening was women's work and below the dignity of an Indian male, but they needed more manpower...) with a heavy emphasis on raising cattle and horses (working with animals, on the other hand, was proper manly work). They were also living log cabins, and dressing very similarly to the White frontiersmen, I believe - I think that the big difference was that the Whites wore hats, whereas the Indians went bareheaded. I dunno if they were making bark-tanned leather at that time, but I do recall reading about raiders stealing hides out of tanning vats in Kentucky, so they liked the product even if they weren't making it themselves at that time.

In other words, by that period there would probably be very little in design, material, or decoration to distinguish a SE Native set of accouterments. Regardless of who produced it, a plain 'ole pouch of bark-tanned leather, or possibly coarse cloth, would be the most likely companion to a c. 1775 smoothbore down here....
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2020, 04:29:49 PM »
Excellent post Elnathan and a great contribution to the thread. You’re making the same argument Marc did and I think you guys are right. Btw, I’d be portraying more 1750s, early days of the Carolina gun. I know, and agree most tribes of the area had moved to permanent villages and agriculture centric existence, and had incorporated many White ways. That’s basically why I’m choosing to go sort of mixed accoutrements. I think there wouldn’t have been quillwork or much other fanciful stuff, but I think there would have been color. That was an NA thing that had really rubbed off on a lot of Whites of the period. Particularly my ancestors, who were Scots of the NC frontier and prone to that themselves.

‘Fantasy’ to me is outside the realm of plausibility. All things under the sun and all that.  There were every sort and then, like today, there were those who liked the old way (I know that’s a weak argument) so I think a twined bag wouldn’t have been used as a hunting pouch but MAY have still been carried, rarely, as a haversack type tote bag, by those holding on to their ways any way they could. The Eastern NAs did use something, and as there’s virtually no record, I think I’d be safe to use what seems most likely. And that would be a simple leather, likely one piece, bag.. with some cultural additions likely made up of color.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2020, 11:59:51 PM »
Bob,
The bag is 10" deep and 12" wide.  I bought the strap from a vendor at the Kalamazoo show....maybe CJ Wilde.  I recall I gave $40 for it.  The ends are woven into the bag.  I used to go to all the F&I War events around the Great Lakes when I lived there.  I see the young lady in the link you provided got her start in 2005.  I had done mine in the late 90's.  Maybe she saw mine and got the bug.

I can't find the quad colored wool one but did run across this one, obviously unfinished as well.  It's of the double weft, single warp variety.  If you look in the center, you can see where the design is barely starting to emerge.  It would have been a large diamond and on either side would have been solid green bands and then transitioned back into the same as the top.  Obviously, this craft isn't for someone with arthritic fingers.  This one is 10" wide.  They can be made any size by moving the position of one of the dowels.  I think there are a couple of people still making them, but I don't run with that group anymore.



Dave. Are those woven from the bottom up?

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2020, 12:15:45 AM »
Quick question, and this applies to all antiquities in general...

There are many things that we have no examples of. Is it possible that many items just did not survive the ravages of time?

As firearms advanced towards the modern era, especially towards contained cartridges, it would seem likely that bags, horns, and all the little knick knacks that were used would have been placed on a shelf, hung on a peg in the barn, traded away, repurposed, or just plain discarded... Especially after years of neglect and being worm/moth eaten.

I would imagine that during the latter parts of the 19th century most of the handmade/homespun items that grandpa used were not held with the same reverence we have today. And most were tossed out or given to the dog to chew on or left to the barn rats.

Anything to do with the Cherokee (or any of the 5 civilized tribes) especially firearms in the pre-removal era, are very difficult to find to the point of being non-existent.

My daughters have Cherokee lineage through their mom and my youngest daughter has put a lot of stock in her heritage. So I contacted her and asked about firearms and accoutrements during pre-removal and during the removal. So far no one has been able to definitively say whether or not the Cherokee were permitted to bring their guns on the Trail of Tears... References are made to them hunting small game on the way but that could have been done with bows/arrows. My daughter contacted one of her professors about firearms during removal... She didn't know but is asking others who might know of have some idea.

If the world wasn't shut down I would schedule a trip to the Cherokee museum in Tahlequah and look and ask the historians... But it will have to wait.

It's a shame so much was lost to the ages.

Mike

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2020, 12:39:46 AM »
Quote
Dave. Are those woven from the bottom up?
Mine are done from the top down with the leftover stringys braided and wrapped.  Others would sew my top closed and wrap the stringys making it the top.  I tried that way and didn't care for it.

The twine in the center is one continuous piece that is twined round and round the loom with pieces added as one goes to keep it at a workable length.  Also, other colors are often added depending on the pattern.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2020, 12:43:26 AM »
To Mike:

I’m of the mind that most of what was from that period has been lost to the extent it skews our perceptions. We have some great accounts but most take a lot for granted as common knowledge or isn’t thought to be worth mentioning. What we have comes from the upper class whites who kept and maintained everything, as they had value, were typically one of many, and so not used up... and the lower class whites who never threw anything away until it was utterly useless. I think there’s a big hole in the middle.

I look at it like, imagine your wallet or necktie or your wife’s purse making it into the year 2250. Not likely, especially if we are attacked and our culture wiped. But a $650 Coach tote has a better chance than a Wally World Pleather purse...
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 05:25:16 AM by Bob McBride »