Coming into my first trade gun. What to carry with it?

[Mike from OK]

To Mike:

I’m of the mind that most of what was from that period has been lost to the extent it skews our perceptions. We have some great accounts but most take a lot for granted as common knowledge or isn’t thought to be worth mentioning. What we have comes from the upper class whites who kept and maintained everything, as it had value, and the lower class whites who never threw anything away. I think there’s a big hole in the middle.

I look at it like, imagine your wallet or necktie or your wife’s purse making it into the year 2250. Not likely, especially if we are attacked and our culture wiped. But a $650 Coach tote has a better chance than a Wally World Pleather purse...

Well said.

When Mom and Dad started remodeling their house we tore out a lot of plaster and lath... We discovered spots inside the walls where cracks in the siding had been covered with pages from old mail order catalogs... Sears, etc... A lot of them predated OK statehood. It was fascinating to see what everyday items people might have shopped for... And the prices they paid. One I specifically recall was a hand crank wringer style washing machine. I think it was $12.50 shipped.

Mike

[Elnathan]

My daughters have Cherokee lineage through their mom and my youngest daughter has put a lot of stock in her heritage. So I contacted her and asked about firearms and accoutrements during pre-removal and during the removal. So far no one has been able to definitively say whether or not the Cherokee were permitted to bring their guns on the Trail of Tears... References are made to them hunting small game on the way but that could have been done with bows/arrows. My daughter contacted one of her professors about firearms during removal... She didn't know but is asking others who might know of have some idea.

Like the rest of the tribes forced west by the Indian Removal Act (the Cherokee were only one of several) they were issued rifles by the US government - long barreled trade rifles of the Kentucky type, made by Derringer and Krider, I think. Used them to good effect on the Western tribes, too - One caravan of, I think, Chickasaw, had all their horses stolen by some local tribe out west while passing through. The Easterners, about 55 men and boys, decided to go after the thieves, and ended up outside the enemy village facing off against 200 enemy warriors. They traded gunfire for hours, and were actually winning until a nearby village allied with the horse thieves reinforced them with another 200 men...The Easterners decided that discretion was the better part of valor and retreated, having failed to regain their horses and lost about five men, but having taken 50 scalps, despite being outnumbered eight to one. Hanson's book on trade guns has the story (which I'm sure I have gotten wrong in many respects).

As for your point about the general lack of Cherokee-related shooting artifacts, I have considered that. I really like twined bags, after all....The deciding factor for me was that I can't find any examples of post-Mississippian Period twined bags of any kind outside of the Great Lakes Region at all - Nothing. Nada. There just doesn't seem to be much evidence that twining as a technique was in use in the SE after 1600 or so. If you ever run across hard evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

[Mike from OK]

My daughters have Cherokee lineage through their mom and my youngest daughter has put a lot of stock in her heritage. So I contacted her and asked about firearms and accoutrements during pre-removal and during the removal. So far no one has been able to definitively say whether or not the Cherokee were permitted to bring their guns on the Trail of Tears... References are made to them hunting small game on the way but that could have been done with bows/arrows. My daughter contacted one of her professors about firearms during removal... She didn't know but is asking others who might know of have some idea.

Like the rest of the tribes forced west by the Indian Removal Act (the Cherokee were only one of several) they were issued rifles by the US government - long barreled trade rifles of the Kentucky type, made by Derringer and Krider, I think. Used them to good effect on the Western tribes, too - One caravan of, I think, Chickasaw, had all their horses stolen by some local tribe out west while passing through. The Easterners, about 55 men and boys, decided to go after the thieves, and ended up outside the enemy village facing off against 200 enemy warriors. They traded gunfire for hours, and were actually winning until a nearby village allied with the horse thieves reinforced them with another 200 men...The Easterners decided that discretion was the better part of valor and retreated, having failed to regain their horses and lost about five men, but having taken 50 scalps, despite being outnumbered eight to one. Hanson's book on trade guns has the story (which I'm sure I have gotten wrong in many respects).

As for your point about the general lack of Cherokee-related shooting artifacts, I have considered that. I really like twined bags, after all....The deciding factor for me was that I can't find any examples of post-Mississippian Period twined bags of any kind outside of the Great Lakes Region at all - Nothing. Nada. There just doesn't seem to be much evidence that twining as a technique was in use in the SE after 1600 or so. If you ever run across hard evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it.

Awesome info! Thanks very much Elnathan!

I am going to pass that on to my daughter.

Mike

[Bob McBride]

Yep, I agree. Excellent info! Thanks!                           

[jrb]

Bob, funny, i'm doing the type g trade gun thing too. for what it's worth, in his 2011 "Firearms of the Fur Trade" James Hanson suggests type g guns were done being made around 1750. much differing dates from what I read by contemporary builders on the internet.
 searching acedemia.net etc. I find almost no quillwork before 1750,(at least so far).
 also I have questions on "painted type g trade guns". Gary Brumfield and others wrote of the blue painted guns and I have the period quotes, but they were (apparently?) rev war era and were they the earlier type G? Nope.  also I've read  of "spotted" trade guns, but, so far I've only seen written evidence of "spotted stock guns" and a period mention of "mottled stock" guns, I wonder if they were not painted spots but instead figured European beech? I haven't found convincing evidence (to me at least for what it's worth) the only for sure Painted seems to be the one single bumford ? not
any of this stuff is proven historically correct so far, to me, but of course maybe more searching will confirm one way or another. Awesome fascinating subjects though! Whatever you end up doing will be cool!

[Bob McBride]

Bob, funny, i'm doing the type g trade gun thing too. for what it's worth, in his 2011 "Firearms of the Fur Trade" James Hanson suggests type g guns were done being made around 1750. much differing dates from what I read by contemporary builders on the internet.
 searching acedemia.net etc. I find almost no quillwork before 1750,(at least so far).
 also I have questions on "painted type g trade guns". Gary Brumfield and others wrote of the blue painted guns and I have the period quotes, but they were (apparently?) rev war era and were they the earlier type G? Nope.  also I've read  of "spotted" trade guns, but, so far I've only seen written evidence of "spotted stock guns" and a period mention of "mottled stock" guns, I wonder if they were not painted spots but instead figured European beech? I haven't found convincing evidence (to me at least for what it's worth) the only for sure Painted seems to be the one single bumford ? not
any of this stuff is proven historically correct so far, to me, but of course maybe more searching will confirm one way or another. Awesome fascinating subjects though! Whatever you end up doing will be cool!

Thanks for the info. I’ve pretty much decided on a simple early bag and a horn with a bit of color painted in a subtle NA style with a funky strap. Trying to get Eric Ewing to supply that. I think that’ll pretty much cover me.

I read somewhere about early type Gs having already been painted light blue when they got off the ship. Can’t remember where I read it. Still researching. I do like the Bumford gun and am happy to have gotten a bench copy.

[Marcruger]

I wish I could find the reference Bob, and I would appreciate someone directing me back to it.  I recall that one historian made the comment that a "blue" trade gun was referring to the metal finish, not blue painted wood.  He asserted that there were also "blacked" guns with a more weather resistant finish (maybe more like tar or paint) on the metal.  I dug into that after seeing the racks of bright blue guns in Williamsburg.  They certainly seem garish, and hardly subtle in a combat situation. 

I believe it is Bivens book on NC that carries a period ad from a gunsmith in Wilmington NC.  He was looking for hard maple with lots of curl, and offered blue and brown metal finishes.  I was particularly interested in the blue or brown, as I had heard others assert that it was either one or the other, depending upon time period.  That ad put that to rest. 

[T*O*F]

He asserted that there were also "blacked" guns with a more weather resistant finish (maybe more like tar or paint) on the metal.

Those were naval guns finished with an asphaltum paint for protection from salt water.

[Bob McBride]

I love that bag TOF.

It can be yours.  I don't use it anymore.

The technology didn't really differ among tribes.  Sizes varied from small as a woman's purse to large ones attached to a tumpline for carrying loads when moving camp.  As an aside, they often unraveled old trade blankets to get the colored yarn to weave into the pattern. That could be done to this one somewhat akin to embroidery.

More later when I've the time.  I started one from homespun wool yarn dyed 4 different shades of yellow with a very subtle pattern that blended into each other.  However, it was so fine I never finished it.  After 6 months of evening work, I only had 4" done.  I have another bi-colored one still on the loom that I can take pics of.

Hey Dave, I do like that bag and would like to chat with you about snagging it from you for a possibles type bag to wear with the shot pouch and horn I’m putting together for the Jack Brooks Type G ‘Bumford’. I’ll PM you. Get back when you have time.

[backsplash75]

http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/03/chewed-bullets-flying.html

http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2013/02/all-i-got-for-christmass-was-lump-of.html

Samuel McGowen, AA 5060-C, voucher 28 July 1779, taken a prisoner at
Battle on Savannah River on 11 February 1779, lost one rifle gun,
one otter skin shot bag, a powder horn, and a fur hat.


Collection: The South Carolina Gazette
Publication: THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
Date: July 17, 1736
Title: CHARLESTOWN
Location: Charleston, South Carolina



CHARLESTOWN,





 On Saturday last in the Afternoon, King Opayhatchoe  of the Upper Creeks,  and one of the beloved Men from the Abecoes,  and one head Warrior of the Cussatoes,  of the Lower Creek  Indians, were sent for to come to the Governor in Council, where the said King begun his Speech, which was interpreted by Mr. Th. Wright  to the following Purpose.

THat when the Commissioners had told him to come down, tho' it was a great Way, he resolved to come very willingly, and was arrived here in a good Day, not expecting a bad Day; that he was heartily glad to see the Governor and all his Brothers the white People here, and as he came with one Heart and one Mouth he wish'd that the Traders might go abroad in Peace amongst them from this Place as they did before, for the white People were all one to him, he not knowing nor expecting any Difference between them. He did not come here for any Fee, nor expected he any thing that is bad, but as he did not talk for himself, but for all his People, he would not have the River that goes round to be stopt for the Carriage of Rum; that he saw there (at Georgia)  was a Chief, and here was a Chief, all white People, and all alike to him, but that he chuses this Place to deal with as his Friends; that he is a red Man and the Ground did belong to them, but they had parted with the Land on this side the River, and had no Pretention to it, but that on the other side was for the red People and their Lord; that Mr. McKoy  had built a Fort there by his Consent, and had outdone him; but that whoever shall build another Fort on his Land shall be a better Man than he, and that his Words shall be the same there as here, and he not be found a Liar.

 On Monday last, the Cataboes, mentioned in my last, left this Town, and going up the broad Path, the Head Man of them lying down to sleep on this Side the Quarter-house, he was robb'd of his Gun, Powder and Shot Pouch , an Otter-Skin bag, Shoes, Hat, and all what he had about him, which is supposed to be committed by some Run-away Negroes, who lurk about the Town, having no fear of being disturb'd by the Patrol, the Law being expired.

[Bob McBride]

http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/03/chewed-bullets-flying.html

http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2013/02/all-i-got-for-christmass-was-lump-of.html

Samuel McGowen, AA 5060-C, voucher 28 July 1779, taken a prisoner at
Battle on Savannah River on 11 February 1779, lost one rifle gun,
one otter skin shot bag, a powder horn, and a fur hat.


Collection: The South Carolina Gazette
Publication: THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE
Date: July 17, 1736
Title: CHARLESTOWN
Location: Charleston, South Carolina



CHARLESTOWN,





 On Saturday last in the Afternoon, King Opayhatchoe  of the Upper Creeks,  and one of the beloved Men from the Abecoes,  and one head Warrior of the Cussatoes,  of the Lower Creek  Indians, were sent for to come to the Governor in Council, where the said King begun his Speech, which was interpreted by Mr. Th. Wright  to the following Purpose.

THat when the Commissioners had told him to come down, tho' it was a great Way, he resolved to come very willingly, and was arrived here in a good Day, not expecting a bad Day; that he was heartily glad to see the Governor and all his Brothers the white People here, and as he came with one Heart and one Mouth he wish'd that the Traders might go abroad in Peace amongst them from this Place as they did before, for the white People were all one to him, he not knowing nor expecting any Difference between them. He did not come here for any Fee, nor expected he any thing that is bad, but as he did not talk for himself, but for all his People, he would not have the River that goes round to be stopt for the Carriage of Rum; that he saw there (at Georgia)  was a Chief, and here was a Chief, all white People, and all alike to him, but that he chuses this Place to deal with as his Friends; that he is a red Man and the Ground did belong to them, but they had parted with the Land on this side the River, and had no Pretention to it, but that on the other side was for the red People and their Lord; that Mr. McKoy  had built a Fort there by his Consent, and had outdone him; but that whoever shall build another Fort on his Land shall be a better Man than he, and that his Words shall be the same there as here, and he not be found a Liar.

 On Monday last, the Cataboes, mentioned in my last, left this Town, and going up the broad Path, the Head Man of them lying down to sleep on this Side the Quarter-house, he was robb'd of his Gun, Powder and Shot Pouch , an Otter-Skin bag, Shoes, Hat, and all what he had about him, which is supposed to be committed by some Run-away Negroes, who lurk about the Town, having no fear of being disturb'd by the Patrol, the Law being expired.

Thanks Backsplash, that exactly what was in my head. A Lyman type bag,  yellow Rev war horn by Sibley but with a red throat and some sort of Eric Ewing type funky colored strap with red in it. Awesome pic. Thanks.

[David Rase]

Bob,
This is the bag I originally purchased to go with the Type G gun.  As you can see it is a smallish one compartment bag with minimal quill work.  Unfortunately I can't remember the maker I bought the bag from or who I sold it to.  I have long since sold the bag.  Since you are a minimalist in what you carry in your bag I wanted to give you a bit of food for thought.  Might be an inspiration that the Sibley's could branch off of.  I am a big fan of open top bags.  I have one from Eric Ewing and one from my own hand.  I really like the convenience of not messing with a flap.  And at my present activity rate, I don't have to worry about stuff falling out of the bag.
David
 

[Elnathan]

A couple of guys have interpreted "otterskin shot bags" as an open-topped bag made out of otterskin: https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=james+adair

However, they may have been a case skinned fur sewn up again with a slit in the tummy area very much like a market wallet. There is at least one surviving Iroquois pouch  of the mini-market wallet type but made out of quilled buckskin, and there is an early 18th century illustration of a SE Indian carrying what looks like a similar pouch draped over the top of his powderhorn. I have to go to work shortly so I don't have time to look for it just now.

I went and had a quick look over at the otter skins at Moscow Hide and Fur, and they appear too big to just sew up the ends and make a wallet/pouch. Either they were using much smaller otters, judging by the illustration I mentioned, or they were doing more cutting and sewing to make the pouch.

[Bob McBride]

A couple of guys have interpreted "otterskin shot bags" as an open-topped bag made out of otterskin: https://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=james+adair

However, they may have been a case skinned fur sewn up again with a slit in the tummy area very much like a market wallet. There is at least one surviving Iroquois pouch  of the mini-market wallet type but made out of quilled buckskin, and there is an early 18th century illustration of a SE Indian carrying what looks like a similar pouch draped over the top of his powderhorn. I have to go to work shortly so I don't have time to look for it just now.

I went and had a quick look over at the otter skins at Moscow Hide and Fur, and they appear too big to just sew up the ends and make a wallet/pouch. Either they were using much smaller otters, judging by the illustration I mentioned, or they were doing more cutting and sewing to make the pouch.

Awesome info. Thanks for the link.

[Bob McBride]

Bob, funny, i'm doing the type g trade gun thing too. for what it's worth, in his 2011 "Firearms of the Fur Trade" James Hanson suggests type g guns were done being made around 1750. much differing dates from what I read by contemporary builders on the internet.
 searching acedemia.net etc. I find almost no quillwork before 1750,(at least so far).
 also I have questions on "painted type g trade guns". Gary Brumfield and others wrote of the blue painted guns and I have the period quotes, but they were (apparently?) rev war era and were they the earlier type G? Nope.  also I've read  of "spotted" trade guns, but, so far I've only seen written evidence of "spotted stock guns" and a period mention of "mottled stock" guns, I wonder if they were not painted spots but instead figured European beech? I haven't found convincing evidence (to me at least for what it's worth) the only for sure Painted seems to be the one single bumford ? not
any of this stuff is proven historically correct so far, to me, but of course maybe more searching will confirm one way or another. Awesome fascinating subjects though! Whatever you end up doing will be cool!

Here's the quote from 'Robert Greenhow's Recollection of Williamsburg, c1775' about the Blue Trade Guns for anyone interested....

"the youth of Williamsburg formed themselves into a military corps and chose Henry Nicholson as their Capt.; that on Dunmore's flight from Williamsburg, they repaired to the magazine and armed themselves with blue painted stock guns kept for the purpose of distributing among the Indians, and equip't as the minute men volunteers in military garb, that is to say in hunting shirts, trousers, bucktails, cockades and "Liberty or Death" suspended to their breasts as their motto; that they could and did perform all the evolutions of the manual exercise far better than the soldiers who were daily arriving from the adjacent counties; that their captain, Henry Nicholson, was about 14 years old."

and the link from Clay Smith:

https://www.claysmithguns.com/Blue_Trade_Gun.htm

[Bob McBride]

Bob,
This is the bag I originally purchased to go with the Type G gun.  As you can see it is a smallish one compartment bag with minimal quill work.  Unfortunately I can't remember the maker I bought the bag from or who I sold it to.  I have long since sold the bag.  Since you are a minimalist in what you carry in your bag I wanted to give you a bit of food for thought.  Might be an inspiration that the Sibley's could branch off of.  I am a big fan of open top bags.  I have one from Eric Ewing and one from my own hand.  I really like the convenience of not messing with a flap.  And at my present activity rate, I don't have to worry about stuff falling out of the bag.
David
 

That is a great bag and I think I’m on the road to finding or making an open top otter bag. I’ve picked up a nice one for now and Sibley is making a horn to go with the rifle. Red throat, and some line work similar but not the same as the gun. Eric Ewing is working on some of his funky straps I’m trying to get my hands on, and I bought his exotic white (whitetail belly?) fur-on shot pouch he posted in his last thread so it’s coming together.

[Mike Brooks]

I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

[Bob McBride]

I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

I think I do but the Ben Franklin spectacles make me look more like Filipe Rose of the Village People than a Cherokee Brave.....

[JW]

Another interpretation of an otter skin pouch. Image is borrowed from a friend at Fort Dobb's where they interpret NC Provincials and Cherokee from 1750's/60's. Numerous references to otter skin pouches used by NDNs in the south. I think you're on point going native for the accoutrements for this gun. I had a red-painted Carolina gun which I sold to make room for another gun. Phenomenal handling weapons when the right barrel is used. What a fantastic gun.

[Mike Brooks]

I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

I think I do but the Ben Franklin spectacles make me look more like Filipe Rose of the Village People than a Cherokee Brave.....

YIKES!

And also YIKES! because you know the name of one of the guys from The Village People.....

[Marcruger]

"Quote from: Mike Brooks on May 14, 2020, 03:02:27 PM
I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

I think I do but the Ben Franklin spectacles make me look more like Filipe Rose of the Village People than a Cherokee Brave.....

YIKES!

And also YIKES! because you know the name of one of the guys from The Village People..... "

Ruh-roh.  Methinks Bob just outed himself.  Hah, hah!   

[Bob McBride]

Great... Now I can't get "Y.M.C.A." out of my head...

[Dave Marsh]

I can't get Y.M.CA. out of my head either since your post Bob.  Well I had this one in my head before your post..... 

Dave 

[Greg Pennell]

I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

I think I do but the Ben Franklin spectacles make me look more like Filipe Rose of the Village People than a Cherokee Brave.....

Bob, I’m looking forward to seeing the “new look” when you debut this gun and “outfit” on your YouTube channel.  Be sure and give us some advance warning...I’ll need to prepare with some of Kentucky’s finest...

[Bob McBride]

I hope you look good in nothing but a breech clout and mocs and greased up with bear grease. Please post photos....or not....

I think I do but the Ben Franklin spectacles make me look more like Filipe Rose of the Village People than a Cherokee Brave.....

Bob, I’m looking forward to seeing the “new look” when you debut this gun and “outfit” on your YouTube channel.  Be sure and give us some advance warning...I’ll need to prepare with some of Kentucky’s finest...

Will do. I've got both of those bottles in my dry bar. The Buffalo Trace is smooth as glass...