Author Topic: Wrought Iron Barrel  (Read 2960 times)

Offline Goo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2023, 03:26:39 PM »
Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.
Thank you for not being offended.   As I understand your reply the barrel manufacturing process involves involves proofing and testing to reveal flaws and pushing the product to point of failure which reasonably allows us to use the barrel (this is the caveat) At the time of manufacture it passed testing
 I assume reconditioning old barrels follow the same rules which leads to the follow up question which may be obvious to those who work with forge welded skelp into tubes. why not do this with low carbon 1018 steel? which has very similar properties to wrought iron minus the wood grain effect.   
 My previous comment also questioned, Why is the new technology of joining modern flawless material into heavy wall tubing in a controlled environment to produce a joined seam that is undetectable and passing proofing test not acceptable?  While an old technology to produce the same thing under with the chances of contamination being much higher passing proofing test acceptable ?     
Opinions are expensive. Rich people rarely if ever voice their opinion.

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18819
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2023, 04:11:46 PM »
Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.
Thank you for not being offended.   As I understand your reply the barrel manufacturing process involves involves proofing and testing to reveal flaws and pushing the product to point of failure which reasonably allows us to use the barrel (this is the caveat) At the time of manufacture it passed testing
 I assume reconditioning old barrels follow the same rules which leads to the follow up question which may be obvious to those who work with forge welded skelp into tubes. why not do this with low carbon 1018 steel? which has very similar properties to wrought iron minus the wood grain effect.   
 My previous comment also questioned, Why is the new technology of joining modern flawless material into heavy wall tubing in a controlled environment to produce a joined seam that is undetectable and passing proofing test not acceptable?  While an old technology to produce the same thing under with the chances of contamination being much higher passing proofing test acceptable ? 

I and perhaps others don’t know how to navigate and distinguish between different methods and qualities of DOM tubing. There has been criticism of DOM tubing that may be based on one type or another, and the non-engineer, non-metallurgist doesn’t know what’s what snd lumps them all together as suspect. Though some high quality builders use barrels fashioned from DOM barrels. I have such a barrel on my rack, from Ken Netting.

The barrel safety topic has many confusing facets.
1. The traditional method of making barrels, used exclusively for many hundreds of years (forge welding) is considered suspect by some.  Yet many of us shoot original ML rifles and shotguns with forged wrought iron barrels.
2. Some people throw around the term “barrel steel” meaning steel intended for high pressure modern cartridge guns and state that most ML barrels are not made of “barrel steel”.  True but in my view, not entirely relevant to low pressure guns shooting black powder.

There are more factors, including some failure of ML barrels in the 1970s and 1980s, primarily made by deep drilling of drawn octagon barrels by Douglas. Before, during, and since that period tens of thousands of “non-barrel steel” barrels by many famous makers have been used without incident. Failures have occurred, just as they have with cartridge guns with barrels of 4140, etc. All it takes is operator error.

What few people who call for “barrel steel” barrels in muzzleloaders or warn against all forms of DOM tubing address are these 2 questions:

A) What is the margin between pressure created in a muzzleloader loaded with black powder and the failure pressure of the barrel material being used?

B) What is the margin between pressure created in a center fire rifle and the failure pressure of the barrel material being used?

It’s all been addressed before, several times a year. But, you can see that it’s confusing to many. Most of us purchase available barrels from established makers and choose to not over-think it.



« Last Edit: July 07, 2023, 10:31:03 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline ScottNE

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2023, 03:43:42 AM »
I had bought a bunch from Brad Emig, who was selling iron ??? years ago after I believe he had bought a portion of an old bridge that was being torn down.  I bought round rod and also flat bar from him but I used up all of the bar.   Also there was a company out near P'burgh somewhere that was selling dimensional bridge iron for a time and I bought some from them although that was @20 yrs ago and I no longer remember who they were.  Also the 'Real Wrought Iron' company made a go of it with newly smelted iron but they collapsed relatively quickly.

Brad was selling it at Dixon's and he was right next to me.  Don't know if he still sells it but all I can say is that Shane was a teenager if that gives you some time perspective!

Sounds like I'll still be on the lookout for a made barrel then. I sourced a few small pieces that I have an eye towards trying my hand at lock-making, when/if I get squared away for setting up space for that. That will probably take up all of my free time for a good long while anyway, especially accounting for botching each piece 2 or 3 times and starting over.

This all is one the biggest attractions of wrought iron barrels to my simple mind -- the fact that they're hard to come by is what makes them cool!

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2023, 11:41:30 PM »
Guys,

Many barrels made post 1816 and almost certainly in the percussion era were made using the Remington process.  These barrels were forged without the weld seam and were quite a bit more reliable than the older forge seam welded barrels.  It is interesting that E. Remington never did obtain a patent on his barrel making process, so it was quickly adopted by the Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories.  Most often the Remington process barrels had an off-centered bore at the breech end and were straight sided, not tapered and flared.  The armories improved the process to result in the rough forged barrel having the bore right on center and the barrel having the straight taper of a musket barrel.  Technology is quite interesting.

Jim

Offline tim crowe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2023, 01:12:25 AM »
Goo, no worries about any questions, I don't know everything and am still learning. there are some procedures that have been learned over the centuries of barrel welding that have continued on as being tested as part of the procedures necessary to produce a good welded barrel. As Bookie would say there are many methods, French, English, Belgium and American methods to produce barrels, learn why they are used.
As far as the questions of proof and why modern steel vs wrought iron, does and doesn't or shouldn't work I can't say. That might be more of a Jim Kibler & David Crisalle answer if they want to weight in. The only thing I can offer is wrought has been used for what 5 centuries of barrel making, in forge welding its king when you have a good piece of Wrought it almost welds itself, there are lower quality iron that is weldable but takes more work. I use almost elusively wagon rims and bridge iron. Wagon rims are mixed lot , some welds easy some are like burlap needing constant closing of cracks. I have heard that borax wagon rims or freight wagon are better hadn't had the opportunity to try them out. Standard procedure out of Toad Hall Rifleshop was cut a 6" piece out of the rim and weld it into a short barrel, if it welded easily then it was marked for future barrel work and stored in the loft. The welding up of the barrel was the easy part all the other steps are some real chores and headaches. Boring the barrel ranks up there. The it does keep me out of the bars and burning coal.
Rich Pierce made some good observations in his post.

Offline Ats5331

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2023, 02:23:58 AM »
Guys,

Many barrels made post 1816 and almost certainly in the percussion era were made using the Remington process.  These barrels were forged without the weld seam and were quite a bit more reliable than the older forge seam welded barrels.  It is interesting that E. Remington never did obtain a patent on his barrel making process, so it was quickly adopted by the Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories.  Most often the Remington process barrels had an off-centered bore at the breech end and were straight sided, not tapered and flared.  The armories improved the process to result in the rough forged barrel having the bore right on center and the barrel having the straight taper of a musket barrel.  Technology is quite interesting.

Jim

Jim, I heard rumors you make your own barrels. I may have missed this in an earlier post, but have you made a wrought iron? Apologies if this is repetitive question

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1090
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2023, 02:29:41 PM »
Guys,

Yes, I have made forge welded wrought iron barrels.  I made three barrels from a really nice wagon wheel rim that had such well refined wrought iron that I had to acid etch a sample to confirm the structure.  The process i used was gas welding, so it was not strictly 18th c style.  I no longer do the forge welding, it is more of a young man's job and i am 72 - too old.  Now I refurbish, ream and rifle original wrought iron barrels using oniy 18th c. period tooling.

Jim

Offline tim crowe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2023, 03:48:44 PM »
So I inherited two old wagon wheels that have iron around their edges. Pretty decent size. I don’t have any plans for them whatsoever.

Is this enough to get started? Could be a great way to preserve the iron that has been in my family for many years
It would be enough to get started to use those wagon rims, BUT depending on the iron quality could work. I would recommend cutting a 6" chunk out of both rims and testing them to see if they weld up ok. I usually mark them so I know what came from which rim. The last barrel Angus welded up beautifully, was out of a particular rim that we had cut a 6" piece that welded like a dream, and was so marked as premium WI. Angus forged that barrel by himself with only Bookie running the blower, he did weld it up without a mandrel in the bore.
I am not sure where you are located but if you are any where close to SE Wisconsin we could see about welding those 6" pieces up to see if they work. JB Bauer and I need to rebuild the forge as the firepot needs help, and we have a lot of work right now and cant start anything soon.

I would add welding the barrel from a skelp is probably the easiest part of the work.
Still a fair amount of work after that, and the more technical that happens to really make the barrel shoot great.

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2023, 05:48:56 AM »
I have had 2 experiences with wrought iron barrels.

One started life as a 32. Ruined bore. I drilled it and hand smooth bored it to .36 then hand rifled it and it made a fine shooter.

The other still had enough pitted rifling to carry a freshing cutter and after many a shim and many a pass it recut beautifully. Sadly it had a welding flaw mid barrel and is a patch shredder.

I really ought to put a liner in it.

Old wrought iron barrels are a $#@* shoot…..
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2084
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2023, 05:51:53 AM »
Wow

I didnt know that #@%$#*!;$ was a dirty word on ALR  ::)

What if i had said it was a @#$%/!! Shoot  ;D

Edit. Oh I got away with that one. Ha 😂
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3646
Re: Wrought Iron Barrel
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2023, 03:25:39 PM »
“No different than shooting Damascus
 Been doing it for 40 plus years.  No big deal.  ;D ;DI hope no one is offended. :D

No offense taken Mike. My great uncle John was an engineering professor at Dartmouth, made prototypes for Winchester, and worked on the Manhattan Project (along with 10,000 other people on the latter). He was gun person and serious hunter. He shot Damascus barrels some.  He said as long as you shot BP and/or kept pressures low you were probably alright.  His caution regarded what went on inside the steel. The welds between layers.  He noted the inside and outside could look great, but those inner welds could be corroded and weak in places.  So, you take your chances and enjoy life.  Heck, a meteorite could hit me tomorrow.  :-). Best wishes, Marc