tapping the ramrod - throwing the rod

[AZshot]

It seems to work for me.  I out shoot most people I'm around, and have my whole life.  Maybe if I stopped tapping the rod, I'd beat a few more.  But I haven't competed with blackpowder in 20 years or so.  When I pull out a gun though, I usually do quite well, with the techniques I use.  I'll experiment to see if this technique does anything to increase accuracy.  If it doesn't, but doesn't decrease accuracy, I'll keep doing it because I like it and always have. 

[WadePatton]

At our annual Provincial rendezvous, I have seen shooters on the line throwing the rod down the bore until it bounces right out of the rifle and they catch it in their hand.  I just shake my head without comment.

   Wadcutters make pretty holes in paper.  I bet a brass rod makes wadcutters even faster.


I too started out bouncing a rod with my first BP gun.  Then some many years later I came along here and did a lot of reading, and a little posting. Eventually I ran across rod bouncing discussed and from that discussion I decided to adopt the one open-handed whack* and done technique and shall ever more.  *to the starter knob atop the rod end. That's what the hole is for. Daryl likely swayed me.  I quit stick flippin' too...but that's another thread. 

Maybe Bob could use this for a video topic-maybe even range test it.

AZ- go right ahead and do as you please. I was only relating how I came to how I load now.

another thought: I second the notion that entrants in the postal shoot indicate if they bounce the rod or not. Could be interesting if enough participate and enough data is collected. 

[Bob McBride]

Ive been considering a chrono test with really compressing the load vs not. Good idea.

[WadePatton]

Ive been considering a chrono test with really compressing the load vs not. Good idea.

Cools.  I'm convinced that consistency of compression is critical to best consistency in velocities, but would consider any data to the contrary.

[Daryl]

I have done that, Bob. in both the .45 and .40's I had, that is, I tested merely seating the ball upon the powder, against giving the starter knob one smack with my palm
the starter being on the rod at that time.
The difference was quite enlightening.  The velocities were spread a LOT more with just the seating the ball onto the powder as well as being on average, 100fps lower
in speed than the one hit delivered.  As consistency is of prime importance in this game, I feel the potential for increased accuracy goes with consistent velocities. Most
often, over 10 shots, my velocities will not vary more than 10fps.  I need every advantage I can get.

[Bob McBride]

I have done that, Bob. in both the .45 and .40's I had, that is, I tested merely seating the ball upon the powder, against giving the starter knob one smack with my palm
the starter being on the rod at that time.
The difference was quite enlightening.  The velocities were spread a LOT more with just the seating the ball onto the powder as well as being on average, 100fps lower
in speed than the one hit delivered.  As consistency is of prime importance in this game, I feel the potential for increased accuracy goes with consistent velocities. Most
often, over 10 shots, my velocities will not vary more than 10fps.  I need every advantage I can get.

Good. I’d love to get that on video. It will put it down as indisputable. I’ll get that done this week. I’m thinking the firm press vs. the three hard tosses talked about in the thread. Any thoughts?

[WadePatton]

I have done that, Bob. in both the .45 and .40's I had, that is, I tested merely seating the ball upon the powder, against giving the starter knob one smack with my palm
the starter being on the rod at that time.
The difference was quite enlightening.  The velocities were spread a LOT more with just the seating the ball onto the powder as well as being on average, 100fps lower
in speed than the one hit delivered.  As consistency is of prime importance in this game, I feel the potential for increased accuracy goes with consistent velocities. Most
often, over 10 shots, my velocities will not vary more than 10fps.  I need every advantage I can get.

Good. I’d love to get that on video. It will put it down as indisputable. I’ll get that done this week. I’m thinking the firm press vs. the three hard tosses talked about in the thread. Any thoughts?

If I was testing it I'd compare: firm press, single palm tap, and the bang 'til she bounces (any consistent way).  Indisputable? Hah! Great luck with that. Some had rather argue than eat. But it is likely that some minds could be swayed if you find a consistent and repeatable result, as Daryl did.

[Bob McBride]

I have done that, Bob. in both the .45 and .40's I had, that is, I tested merely seating the ball upon the powder, against giving the starter knob one smack with my palm
the starter being on the rod at that time.
The difference was quite enlightening.  The velocities were spread a LOT more with just the seating the ball onto the powder as well as being on average, 100fps lower
in speed than the one hit delivered.  As consistency is of prime importance in this game, I feel the potential for increased accuracy goes with consistent velocities. Most
often, over 10 shots, my velocities will not vary more than 10fps.  I need every advantage I can get.

Good. I’d love to get that on video. It will put it down as indisputable. I’ll get that done this week. I’m thinking the firm press vs. the three hard tosses talked about in the thread. Any thoughts?

If I was testing it I'd compare: firm press, single palm tap, and the bang 'til she bounces (any consistent way).  Indisputable? Hah! Great luck with that. Some had rather argue than eat. But it is likely that some minds could be swayed if you find a consistent and repeatable result, as Daryl did.

You’re probably right. I’m ever the optimist.

Sounds good. A 3 way test. Just seated vs single palm tap vs bang away til the rod bounces out (in a consistent way).

[smylee grouch]

And,,  if you could, keep track of the group size too.   

[Dan'l 1946]

Once I've developed a load, I mark the ramrod at that level. Then I seat to that mark every shot. Not very scientific I guess, but it has always worked for me.
                                                              Dan

[stikshooter]

We had a shooter /competitor at our matches who brought a bathroom scale with him . Range rod was pushed down and the ball seated with the same pressure every time !    I've also seen a range rod with a "pressure" device which worked something like a torque wrench, clicking when the desired pressure was achieved. " Kadooty" rod seems to ring a bell.   I just use a steady pressure down on the rod and seem to be able to get repeatable results.  What ever works for you 

I just got a rod using locking spacers for target use ,made by Leihigh Hunting sold by Midway and gives repeatable compression shot to shot .No guess work required !

[Joe S.]

I got in to this sport to keep things simple.I push the ball down to the powder, by feel and just try to do the same everytime.If I want to think to much and start sweating the small stuff I break out the modern stuff,LOL.

[AZshot]

It looks like someone did that test here: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/bpcompress/bpcompress.html
His conclusion was, "I have heard people speak for and against the procedure of 'whanging', or bouncing the ramrod, but it gave the best results here."

Yet this writer has a very long essay on accurate muzzle loading, but just one sentence that says "don't hammer or bounce the rod."  http://traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/developing-an-accurate-load-for-a-black-powder-muzzleloading-rifle

[Bob McBride]

Interesting that the loosest load blew patches for him and gave the worst grouping. I haven’t observed this but it could give insight into the occasional mystery blown patch.

[John SMOthermon]

Loose load let’s gasses by causing patch damage.

Very interesting read posted above, it cause me too think of some things I do subconsciously....

 Besides thumping the rod... occasionally, I’ve always shook the powder can prior to filling the horn .
I also shake my powder horn just before going shooting .

A habit I’ve formed over the years to assure the fine powder is mixed with the larger grains and that any clumps are broken up.

As too the testing, I can’t wait too see your results Bob.

Thanks for putting in the time that you do too promote our sport.
 

[rollingb]

I've got a question for those who claim that bouncing the ramrod on the ball when it can't be "pushed" any further down the bore, actually "deforms" the ball. Has such "deformation" actually been verified, and HOW was it "verified"?

The reason I ask this is, I am a ramrod "flipper" and after pushing the ball down as far as I can push, I give the ramrod a few flips until I get a bit of bounce back, which usually occurs on the third flip of the ramrod.
When I lived in Alaska, I used hardened balls for moose hunting, I cast .570 round balls and added a bit of tin to get the hardening for additional penetration and punching through big bone/rib if encountered.
I saw NO difference in the "flips" needed before getting the first bit of bounce with the ramrod when using a soft pure lead ball vs a hardened ball. One would think that if deformation of the ball was actually taking place during the flipping, it would take MORE flips to deform the harder balls before the ramrod's first bounce but I seen no indication of such.

So,... how do we know that flipping a wooden ramrod down on a ball that is sitting on/or close to the powder charge (which isn't a solid surface) actually causes ball deformation, and why is there no difference in the flips needed to create the same bounce when the hardness of the balls differ?

IMO,.... shooting targets when comparing different loading techniques (to "seat a ball") has some variables, and provides no real concrete evidence whether deformation happens or not.  It'll take actual ball measurements (after a ball is seated) to convince me deformation can/or does occur under the aforementioned way of loading I've described above.     

[Bob McBride]

Loose load let’s gasses by causing patch damage.

I meant to say “not fully seated load” not ‘loose load’, sorry for the confusion. 

..Thanks for putting in the time that you do too promote our sport.

Thanks Smo. Very nice of you to say...

[Bob McBride]

I've got a question for those who claim that bouncing the ramrod on the ball when it can't be "pushed" any further down the bore, actually "deforms" the ball. Has such "deformation" actually been verified, and HOW was it "verified"?

The reason I ask this is, I am a ramrod "flipper" and after pushing the ball down as far as I can push, I give the ramrod a few flips until I get a bit of bounce back, which usually occurs on the third flip of the ramrod.
When I lived in Alaska, I used hardened balls for moose hunting, I cast .570 round balls and added a bit of tin to get the hardening for additional penetration and punching through big bone/rib if encountered.
I saw NO difference in the "flips" needed before getting the first bit of bounce with the ramrod when using a soft pure lead ball vs a hardened ball. One would think that if deformation of the ball was actually taking place during the flipping, it would take MORE flips to deform the harder balls before the ramrod's first bounce but I seen no indication of such.

So,... how do we know that flipping a wooden ramrod down on a ball that is sitting on/or close to the powder charge (which isn't a solid surface) actually causes ball deformation, and why is there no difference in the flips needed to create the same bounce when the hardness of the balls differ?

IMO,.... shooting targets when comparing different loading techniques (to "seat a ball") has some variables, and provides no real concrete evidence whether deformation happens or not.  It'll take actual ball measurements (after a ball is seated) to convince me deformation can/or does occur under the aforementioned way of loading I've described above.     

It’s sort of a ‘two ways of thinking about it’ thing. Bench guys who use tubes to drop their powder, weigh their powder, and use the same pressure each time to gently seat the ball, etc. to put clover leaves on paper dislike things out of their control. The idea of tossing what is basically a blunt nosed arrow at a soft lead ball gives them the vapors....

[AZshot]

I've got a question for those who claim that bouncing the ramrod on the ball when it can't be "pushed" any further down the bore, actually "deforms" the ball.... It'll take actual ball measurements (after a ball is seated) to convince me deformation can/or does occur under the aforementioned way of loading I've described above.     

I always assumed just pushing the ball down with a tight patch deforms it some, and bouncing the rod a couple times may do it some more.  But my premise is it doesn't hurt accuracy.  People shoot round balls with giant sprues of various sizes and shapes.  if aerodynamics mattered with round balls, that would do it.  Maybe it does...I always shoot swaged balls with no sprue.

[WadePatton]

...
The reason I ask this is, I am a ramrod "flipper" and after pushing the ball down as far as I can push, I give the ramrod a few flips ...   

When I used the term "flipper" I was speaking of swapping ends of the ramrod from the loops, not bouncing it.   Those with tapered rods must swap ends or "flip", as I meant it.  But those of us with straight rods can poke the loading end down under the lock and thus not have to swap ends of the rod every time we remove or replace it under the barrel. 

I hope that's more clear now. Sorry for any confusion on that term.

[rollingb]

I think the only way to verify "ball deformation" during loading the traditional way, would be to remove the barrel's breech plug, dump the powder charge, and push the patched ball on through and do some measuring.

Anyone ever done this?

[rollingb]

...
The reason I ask this is, I am a ramrod "flipper" and after pushing the ball down as far as I can push, I give the ramrod a few flips ...   

When I used the term "flipper" I was speaking of swapping ends of the ramrod from the loops, not bouncing it.   Those with tapered rods must swap ends or "flip", as I meant it.  But those of us with straight rods can poke the loading end down under the lock and thus not have to swap ends of the rod every time we remove or replace it under the barrel. 

I hope that's more clear now. Sorry for any confusion on that term.

Actually I was describing the way I sort'a "flip" my ramrod down on the ball (when pushing no longer moves the ball downward) rather "throwing" the ramrod as someone else described. 

So,... no problem. 

[AZshot]

Wait...I thought Flipper was a dolphin.  Or was that a porpoise? 

This is great conversation and analysis.  There are no wrong solutions with many things, just techniques. 

[Daryl]

"Throwing the rod onto the ball" - again, is the military terminology - I read this in a book about the loading of a military musket/rifle, so it must be true.

[Joe S.]

I can hear it now, two buckskins shootin at injuns...You get that one?...yup, but he ran a ways,he's down...LOL,told you not to compress that powder so much