L & R waterproof late flintlock

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
I am getting close to putting a finish on the L & R lock (Model #900) on the rifle I am building but I had a question on the pan/frizzen relationship. The bottom of the frizzen that covers the pan top has an raised portion that fits into the pan. Looking at the frizzen closed down on the pan it seems to fit rather closely. I figure this is one of the reasons why it is called waterproof because that raised portion fits into the pan. I havent filed the top of the pan or the bottom of the frizzen but a thought I had was maybe file it flat and put slight V into the raised portion of the frizzen bottom to help direct the spark into the vent. Has anyone done anything like this? Any thoughts on this lock?
Thanks,
Rob

[smart dog]

Hi Rob,
I believe the L&R late flint has a fairly deep pan.  As such, the lug on the bottom of the frizzen pan cover does not pack the priming powder down unless you put a lot in. Other than the lug siphoning water into your pan, it does no harm on that lock.  That is not true for the L&R Queen Anne lock, which has a very shallow pan and the lug packs the priming down.  Loose powder ignites and burns faster than powder that is packed tight.  Most original late flintlocks have a notch filed under the pan cover adjacent to the vent hole.  That prevents packing the priming in the pan at the vent. On any L&R locks I've used, I annealed the frizzens, ground off the "waterproof" lug and filed notches on the bottom of the pan cover. Then of coarse, I had to harden and temper the frizzen, which for my set up is easy to do.

dave 

[borderdogs]

Thanks Dave, You are right that the pan is deep. I have always used the same powder to prime the pan that I use for the load so I only needed one horn. This rifle being a .50 I think 3F load and prime might work well. I have had other flint rifles and muskets that I have done the same thing and never really had a problem. One of the thoughts I had was maybe filing that lug off or filing a V, hence the question.
Thanks,
Rob

[alacran]

I've always been curious why so called waterproof pan are made the way they are. There is no way that water will not get into them. It would be better if the frizzen would have an overlapping skirt that would lap all around the pan.

[rich pierce]

The fence normally channels water into the pan on a non-waterproof pan model lock. It can also seep in from the bolster flat beside the frizzen pivot. Are the improvements perfect? No, but they are improvements.

[David Price]

I believe the reason they call it a waterproof pan is not the inside of the pan or the little protrusion on the bottom of the frizzen, I believe that is there to keep the priming powder from seeping out.  That works!     I believe it is the little channel just below the pan that is supposed to divert the water from getting into the pan.  It helps but it  doesn't really work very well .  If there is water on your barrel even though the lock has been under your coat,  when  you elevate the muzzle of your gun the water will follow the barrel down to your pan.

Dave is right, the 'Queen Ann lock is different, I would grind the bump off and make sure the frizzen fits the pan perfectly.

On a rainy day I put a little piece of paper towel in the pan until i get to my stand and check it often.  I don't go out hunting  in the rain any more,  I come home in the rain.

David Price

[J. Talbert]

L&R locks didn't always have the little protrusion on the bottom of the frizzen.
If you ever hang around and watch people shopping for flintlocks, they will invariably hold it up and see if they can see light between the frizzen and the pan gap.  That little protrusion solves that issue.
The other thing it does is aid in positioning the frizzen to the pan during the initial assembly of new lock castings.

IMO those are the main reasons for that protrusion and it really provides no useful purpose to the shooter.


Jeff

[Bob Roller]

L&R locks didn't always have the little protrusion on the bottom of the frizzen.
If you ever hang around and watch people shopping for flintlocks, they will invariably hold it up and see if they can see light between the frizzen and the pan gap.  That little protrusion solves that issue.
The 
IMO those are the main reasons for that protrusion and it really provides no useful purpose to the shooter.


Jeff

I think it's called a production expedient and the drops of water that will kill your
hunting trip will run down the 45 degree flat into the "waterproof pan" .
Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Jeff,
I believe that is the story recounted by Jim Chambers.  In the early 1980s it was the thing at Friendship to hold locks up to the light to see if you could see any daylight between the pan and frizzen.  Apparently, that was what many considered the big test of a good lock.  L&R solved the issue by adding the lug to block light.  Waterproof pans (relatively speaking) either have a raised lip around the pan and a gutter between the fence and that lip, or the fence is separated from the pan.  They don't have lugs that slip down into the pan ready to siphon water into it.

dave

[J. Talbert]

Hi Jeff,
I believe that is the story recounted by Jim Chambers.  In the early 1980s it was the thing at Friendship to hold locks up to the light to see if you could see any daylight between the pan and frizzen.  Apparently, that was what many considered the big test of a good lock.  L&R solved the issue by adding the lug to block light.  Waterproof pans (relatively speaking) either have a raised lip around the pan and a gutter between the fence and that lip, or the fence is separated from the pan.  They don't have lugs that slip down into the pan ready to siphon water into it.

dave

Agree 

Jeff

[Mike Brooks]

L&R locks didn't always have the little protrusion on the bottom of the frizzen.
If you ever hang around and watch people shopping for flintlocks, they will invariably hold it up and see if they can see light between the frizzen and the pan gap.  That little protrusion solves that issue.
The other thing it does is aid in positioning the frizzen to the pan during the initial assembly of new lock castings.

IMO those are the main reasons for that protrusion and it really provides no useful purpose to the shooter.


Jeff

DING DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER HERE!

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Jeff,
I believe that is the story recounted by Jim Chambers.  In the early 1980s it was the thing at Friendship to hold locks up to the light to see if you could see any daylight between the pan and frizzen.  Apparently, that was what many considered the big test of a good lock.  L&R solved the issue by adding the lug to block light.  Waterproof pans (relatively speaking) either have a raised lip around the pan and a gutter between the fence and that lip, or the fence is separated from the pan.  They don't have lugs that slip down into the pan ready to siphon water into it.

dave

DING DING DING! ANOTHER WINNER!

[J. Talbert]

I've always been curious why so called waterproof pan are made the way they are. There is no way that water will not get into them. It would be better if the frizzen would have an overlapping skirt that would lap all around the pan.

Chambers Round Face English lock has just such a design on the pan and frizzen, but not on Round Faced Virginia which represents a cheaper export lock of the time.

Jeff

[alacran]

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll have to look at one. I' don't care much for round face English locks so I've never paid Chambers English lock any attention.