Author Topic: Maximum Pattern Density Shotgun Loads (Read 6846 times)

frogwalking · « **on:** August 07, 2009, 11:34:54 PM »

I have read some very good commentaries on loading ml shotguns using light weight wad components in order not to blow heavy wads through the shot column. Other places, folks thought that a very long barrel may allow the pressure to peak and drop off before the shot leaves the barrel to acheive the same end. The fellow with the nice Scott double was wondering why his barrels were coned in a very modest blunderbus fashion. One respondant suggested that it may allow some controlled blow-by to relieve the pressure thus prevent the wads from blowing into the shot column. Here we have another way to achieve the same thing.

My tiny light weight .38 revolver has a ported barrel to reduce muzzle jump with heavy loads. Why wouldn't this same idea relieve the pressure of a ml shotgun to absolutely prevent even lubricated cushion wads from pushing into the shot column? Shure it would look odd, and you would have to keep the vents in mind when pouring powder and shot down the barrel, but it seems like it should work.

What do you think?

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** August 08, 2009, 12:42:11 AM »

While not very period correct, porting would certainly reduce the muzzle blast which throws the wads into the shot column before the shot outpaces the wads. Also,using a faster burning, faster peaking pressure powder will achieve similar results.

frogwalking · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2009, 04:42:22 AM »

Ok Dumb idea. All ideas cannot be great. Have you heard some of the songs with which Dylan did not make a hit? I think I like some of his really dumb ones best.

bob in the woods · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2009, 05:58:24 AM »

Daryl · « **Reply #4 on:** August 14, 2009, 11:35:01 PM »

I'm not saying it's a dumb idea - it will probably work perfectly - but - would you do that to a muzzleloading shotgun is the question.

Steve-In · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:46:12 AM »

I have heard of roughing the last inch or two of the barrel to slow the wads. I have had experience with bell or coning at the muzzle on a shotgun too. The belling was from wear and I could produce nice even doughnut shaped patterns with it no matter what I tried. When the gun was re-bored and jug choked the doughnut went away. The pressure is going to keep the wads against the shot until it leaves the barrel. Most likely the Scott's barrels were belled from much use without a muzzle protector.
No doughnuts here

Daryl · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:35:47 PM »

I prefer to use larger pieces of paper for patterning. The smaller targets will give eronious impressions of pattern evenous. The left pattern appears to have a big round hole starting just above the head of the turkey, while the right target shows one where the writing is. A larger piece of paper will show if these are big holes or not and work can therefore be done on loading to eliminate any such holes. This is the sort of patterning I've done with all my shotguns to produce the best killing patterns from them.

jimrbto · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2009, 06:20:36 AM »

I believe the Mr. V.M. Starr, one of the best bp shot gunners ever, insisted on using only the absolute minimum wads. His load consisted only of equal volumes of powder and shot. Loaded in the following manner: powder, o/p wad, shot, o/s wad. His wads were all the same.. He stated that any other wads were a waste of time and materials. Might be worth a try.
Jim

frogwalking · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2009, 02:13:35 AM »

Hey Dayl. I know you didn't say it was dumb. I was just thinking of where one would drill the holes. Not on the sides if you ever wanted to shoot with friends again. I do think it might work, but in this case, the cure may well be worse than the disease.

Daryl · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2009, 07:06:54 AM »

The 'vents' should be be totally around the barrel - however, on the upper 1/3rd across the top and down the other side to 1/3rd - would suffice - I wouldn't do it.

jim meili · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2009, 05:47:31 PM »

Recently I was having trouble with not being able to hit clay birds. That's not to surprising for me, but I did suspect some pattern problems. At our local trap club I got out the patterning board and did some checking. Using a load of powder+op card+1/2" cushion+shot+os card, I had a huge hole in the middle of the pattern. Then I used a 1/4" cushion and didn't see much of a change. Another club member came by and told me about reading an old Muzzle Blasts with an article about Starr using just an overpowder card with no cushion and getting the best results. With no where else to go I gave it a try. Powder+op card+shot+os card and things tightened up considerably. This is in an original nice Belgian made 12, twist barrels and back action locks, but with perfectly straight cylinder bore barrrels. I began hitting birds regularly. The only problem is that after a few loads the over powder cards get really hard to load and even with some type of lube on them push down quite hard.

I guess I think there is some truth in seeing bores with a slight opening in them to relieve pressure and keep the wad from blowing through the shot. Suppose if the relief is uneven it could be wear from years of loading but than again some of this relief is far greater then what can be attributed to normal wear.

Just some thoughts, everyone have a great day!
Jim

Daryl · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:01:36 PM »

Just had a thought about fouling in shotguns. How about using a slightly undersized over powder wad with a lubed patch around it, then shot, then overshot wad?

jim meili · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2009, 07:35:36 PM »

Daryl, that' a thought. I had a 14 gauge Manton a while back and have some of the 14 gauge overpowder cards from Circle Fly left that I could try with a lubed patch. I soak my cushion wads in melted lard and let them dry on a towel. They always loaded or should I say scrubbed the bore down nicely before dumping in shot. That always kept the bore fairly clean for the next loading. Without them the patch may be just the ticket.
Thanks,
Jim

Steve-In · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2009, 05:55:16 AM »

Daryl, on the full board the patterns look good. The best way to find out is to try several combinations. This gun does not like Star's method.

roundball · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2009, 10:48:03 PM »

I've read Starr's article as well and while on the one hand it promotes the notion that "less is more"...fewer or lighter wad configurations generally tend to improve patterns...like anything else there is a balance / a trade off...a couple of OS cards used in place of lubed OP cushion wads quickly create a fouling/loading problem.

I've had good results using half of a Circle Fly half inch lubed cushion wad...pattern is tighter with just a 1/4" OP wad yet there's still some lube involved. Have also had excellent results using two Oxyoke 1/8" prelubed wool wads over powder.

Side note:
In various pattern testing with smoothbores, I have a .62cal that is Jug Choked Improved Cylinder PLUS (light modified)...and ADDING more OP wad material actually tightens the choke effect.
I get an excellent light modified pattern using a 1/4" of prelubed cushion wad...either 1/2 of the the Circle Fly or two 1/8" Oxyoke wool wads. But if I use a full Circle Fly lubed cushion wad the pattern tightens noticeably more.

One conclusion I've come to is that the longer amount of cushion wads keeps the rear entrance to the expansion sealed from gas pressure for a longer amount of time as the shot is working itself further forward through the expansion chamber.
Don't know if its a fluke or if its a repeatable science but its a nice feature to have on this barrel...an unintended adjustable choke if you will.

Daryl · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2009, 05:57:04 PM »

Makes sense, RB. Longer sealing time before powder gasses can mix or blow through the shot column. The front part of the column is probably back into the 'end-choke' before the wads become loose in the jug. This in itself would promote a big, perhaps 10 to 15% increase in pattern density.

roundball · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »

BUT.....strangely.....this phenomenon did not occur with the other barrel that had the 'Full' Jug Choke in it...using only a half a cushion wad or two Oxyoke wool wads gave slightly tighter patterns in it than using a full size half inch Circle Fly cushion wad...it may just be something unique to the particular I/C PLUS choke dimensions in this particular .62cal barrel.

James Rogers · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:38:31 PM »

With all things shotgunning, one can only take statistics and general rules so far. The balance is voodoo.

There are so many factors that are not absolutes. Each gun likes to eat different things in different ways. Even so with modern guns. There is one particular mix that creates a "nick" for a certain gun like no other.

James

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2009, 12:40:48 AM »

You are spot-on, James - when something works, or doesn't, we can thoerize as to why but in the end, it's the gun which demands what it wants - same with rifles, handguns, atlatls and bows etc.

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Author Topic: Maximum Pattern Density Shotgun Loads (Read 6846 times)

Daryl

Daryl

Steve-In

Daryl

jimrbto

Daryl

Daryl

Steve-In

roundball

Daryl

roundball

Daryl