Author Topic: Cleaning difficulties  (Read 986 times)

Offline AZshot

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Cleaning difficulties
« on: May 17, 2020, 02:58:03 AM »
I'm shooting and cleaning my new Gillispie rifle, with a lot of effort on the cleaning.  In the past, I would use a screw fitting on the nipple of my percussions, with a short hose. The hose into a bucket of water. I'd use water with a touch of soap, and pneumatically run the water up and down.  With the new to me flintlock, I've been pouring hot water into the bore, with a toothpick plugging the vent.  I get pretty clean patches after 2 amounts of water poured in, then out.  Then I switch to wet (water) patches.  After about 10 they are clean. 

Then comes the problems.  I switch to Hoppes (just habit from my smokeless past) to get a little oil in there. I read a lot of people use WD40 at this point.  The problem is I start getting more color on the patches.  Usually it's a reddish brown on the patch. I use tight cotton and some blue shop rags for patches.  I've only had this rifle a short while, shot it 4 times.  Each time I have to keep using Hoppes or CLP for like 4 hours, doing a fresh patch every 10 min or so.  It just never seems to come out clean.  I'm stumped, but I've never had to use an entire T-shirt after one session.  What do you think?

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5092
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2020, 03:05:44 AM »
It usually takes me two patches to clean the bore with room temp water, snug fit patches. Then about 3-4 dry cotton flannel patches to dry the bore and then WD 40, a good shot of it, then a couple of clean dry cotton flannel patches to get excess WD 40 out and the bore is clean. If you run a tight dry flannel patch down latter and come out with a few dark streaks it,s probably carbon and not black powder fouling.

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5092
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2020, 03:44:52 AM »
That redish brown you see might be from the hot water flash rusting, stop the soap and hot water and make double sure your bore is dry before you oil it. Thats why a lot of people use WD 40, to make sure the moisture is gone.

Offline AZshot

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2020, 04:10:01 AM »
Thanks, that could be it, I'll try.

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
  • Short Mountain, TN
    • Black Powder TV
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2020, 05:25:40 AM »
Yep. In my experience hot water flash rusts. I use lukewarm. Plug with a toothpick, let it set for 5 mins, pour it out, and run Balistol patches. Maybe 6 til itís pretty clean. Some grey is normal, itís the graphite from the powder leaching out of the steel, and then I grease it with bear grease or some other natural oil and good to go.
-Bob

Black Powder TV
www.youtube.com/c/blackpowdertv

ď...you can take your Horned Toad down Mexico way, Iíve got business in Missouri.Ē - Josie Wales

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2020, 04:14:52 PM »
I agree with Bob. I also use Darylís trick of wet patching and making the last load a reduced charge.

I put a toothpick in the vent hole, and trap a patch with it under the frizzen to catch any leak. I also tie a rag around the breech to also catch any drip.

I fill the bore with lukewarm water, not hot, and let sit while I clean other stuff. Drain and repeat.

I then wet water patch until clean.

I then soak a couple patches in WD40 to displace the water.

Lock is removed and scrubbed completely, lightly oiled, wiped down and reinstalled.

The next day I dry patch to remove the WD40, and oil the bore with preservative.  The ďnext day oilingĒ is important, and often Iíll see trace evidence of surface rust on the dry patches. After the oiling, the bore is safe for a long while. Store horizontal or muzzle down.

A good and trusted friend recommends cheap windshield washer fluid for bore cleaning versus water, and I am going to try that next.  In our humidity, my particular barrel takes work to get clean. All bores are different. Some clean quick, some are a pain.

Hot water has no advantage over lukewarm, but it will rust your bore

Hope this helps.  God bless, Marc

Offline AZshot

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2020, 04:22:27 PM »
The hot water was probably my downfall.  In the past, I used hot, but by the time it got pulled up the hose into the barrel, it was just luke warm.  With this rifle, I just put a funnel in and poured VERY hot water in.  I think next time I'll just use cold. 

Last night I switched from Hoppes to WD40 (just for fun, I know there was no moisture left, I'm in Arizona).  Still getting a red/brown pattern on the patches.  This morning I gave up and went to CLP.  Still getting red/brown.  I guess the CLP will stabilize it til I shoot again in a week or so.  Thanks for all the help.  It was  very frustrating to be on my 35th patch and still just as brown as the first one!

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3537
  • Dane Lund
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2020, 06:05:47 PM »
AZ,
You should never get brown on your patches.  Fouling is black or gray.  Brown is rust.
Wd40 displaces moisture, but in mt opinion, doesn't leave much protection.
(I know I'll get grief for this)
Personally, I use Breakfree CLP for storage.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10546
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2020, 07:30:20 PM »
Do NOT use Hoppes nitro solvent in your muzzleloading rifles/guns!!!!  And use water that is only comfortable to your skin - definitely not hot.  I use a few drops of dishwashing detergent/soap in my cleaning water and don't get brown on any patches during the cleaning process.  Hoppes has an oxidizing effect on muzzleloading barrel steel.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline AZshot

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2020, 08:02:12 PM »
Thanks, Hoppes off the list.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7891
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2020, 08:32:29 PM »
With really tight cotton patches on a jag, when the barrel is dry, you will get grey streaks on the "last" patch. The grey is iron oxide pulled off the steel, not BP fouling. Left outside overnight, that ironoxide
 will be red-rust in the morning.
After cleaning the outside of the barrel is wiped off with a towel just for that purpose.
Then, doubled flannelette patches are run down and back out the bore until dry.
After the last drying patch (usually 4th or 5th) I liberally spray WD40 down the bore until it runs out the vent or nipple seat. Then a doubled flannelette patch (jag is sized to use doubled flannelette) is run down the tube to blast out the excess WD40 - up and down several times, then removed.
The drying patches can be dried and used several times. The cleaning patch, usually only one needed, it tossed.
All my barrels are removed for cleaning. Long delicate tang'd barrels would be cleaned on the gun using the ROUNDPICK and filling the bore with water - then flushed repeat several times before drying, then WD40, then that flushed and wiped down and replaced. That will use up a LOT more patches.  When removing the barrel for cleaning, at most 6 patches are used.
The WD40 patch comes out simply wet, no fouling, no grey or black streaks & the barrel is wiped down with that patch then replaced.
Locks are cleaned with a toothbrush, dried off, then blown off with compressed air or set in the sun to dry completely, sprayed liberally with WD40, shaken off, wiped and replaced.  The moly I use
for lock lubrication on the bearing spots, lasts about a year - then is replaced as needed.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2020, 03:43:31 AM »
Nah Smallpatch.  No grief at all.  After cleaning and WD40 on shooting day, I use Breakfree CLP as the bore preservative the following day.  No rust to be found after months.  It rates fairly well in comparison tests, and is easily found.  I am not putting it to hard use either as my house is air conditioned.  If I was going to store long term, I'd go with something like RIG in the bore. 

LOTS of modern oils will protect the bore in storage.  To me the key is to go back and oil it the second day.  I agree that WD40 is a fine moisture displacer, and a mediocre protectant.  Comparison tests bear that out. 

I saw Taylor's comment about Hoppes #9.  Fine stuff in modern guns, and I will go with his recommendation on muzzleloaders.  He and Daryl have lots of experience.  I do use Hoppe's Black Powder Lube/Cleaner as a patch lube.  I like it as it's slippery as owl snot, and doesn't smell at all like Hoppe's #9.  I do not use it for cleaning, just patch lube.  I like the fact that tightly patched loads go down fairly well with Hoppe's BP lube.  I have also tried the Lehigh Valley for wet lube, but it feels less slippery when driving the ball down.  Seems to shoot the same though. 

I hope this helps some.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10546
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2020, 07:31:33 PM »
Marc:  I appreciate your endorsement.  My abhorrence to Hopppe's #9 in MLs comes from first hand experience.  I built a nice little .40 cal rifle for my friend Peter.  It featured a Getz .40 cal A weight barrel.  Peter used boiling water to clean his rifle, and followed it with Hoppe's on the advice of another shooting friend.  Over the course of several years, he nearly ruined the barrel, with flash rusting, and oxidization of the bore from the Nitro solvent.  A full day by Daryl and I of lapping was all that saved the rifle barrel.
Use tepid water, dry, and oil.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
  • Short Mountain, TN
    • Black Powder TV
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2020, 07:59:40 PM »
-Bob

Black Powder TV
www.youtube.com/c/blackpowdertv

ď...you can take your Horned Toad down Mexico way, Iíve got business in Missouri.Ē - Josie Wales

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2020, 08:14:18 PM »
Just to be clear I hope no one EVER uses Hoppe's #9 nitro solvent in a black powder firearm. Hoppe's does make a black powder solvent and patch lube that some shooters use and have had success with. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PRODUCT AND NOT INTERCHANGEABLE!
Neatsfoot oil for your lube, tepid water to clean. Never have to wipe during shooting. Simple and no rust issues ever.
"Muskrat" Mike
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline AZshot

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2020, 09:52:51 PM »
I'll stay away from Hoppes 9 for the muzzle loader.  And I realize people have strong preferences for materials they use, or won't use.  But I also realize Hoppes no. 9 is pretty innocuous, and has been made since 1903, when a lot of guns still used black powder. If you use WD40, or CLP, or any oil, it's about the same thing as Hoppes, a sented Kerosean some say.  Some cleaners have ammonia, I know that is bad too, but Hoppes 9 doesn't. 

I always cleaned by 1) water, 2) Hoppes then dry patches, 3) CLP.  I don't think the Hoppes is going to blow up my gun or melt the metal.  It may have made that flash rust, but I think the hot water did that.  So I'll change to cold water, WD40, then dry patches, then CLP at the end.  Thanks again.

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2170
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2020, 10:42:54 PM »
AZshot,

I would like to add something about Hoppe's #9.  It is a powder solvent and a copper solvent. On blued guns it works fine on the outside as a medium duty rust preventative......on BLUED guns mind you.  It is not innocuous.  There have been many nickeled guns flat ruined by Hoppe's #9, so beware if you own one.  It attacks copper, which for many years was the intermediate layer between steel and nickel plating.  If you have a pin hole in the plating, Hoppe's #9 can wick under and dissolve the copper.  The nickel flakes off and you end up with a scabrous looking gun.  I've seen it, though thankfully it wasn't my gun.

I used Hoppe's #9 (family tradition) for years inside and outside on guns, though not BP arms.  No issues, no rust.  That said, never let #9 and Tetra Lube gun grease anywhere near each other.  The result resembles rust colored contact cement, and is a pain to get off even using carbon tet. 

Hope this helps.   God Bless,   Marc

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4367
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2020, 01:38:55 AM »
Just to be clear I hope no one EVER uses Hoppe's #9 nitro solvent in a black powder firearm. Hoppe's does make a black powder solvent and patch lube that some shooters use and have had success with. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PRODUCT AND NOT INTERCHANGEABLE!
Neatsfoot oil for your lube, tepid water to clean. Never have to wipe during shooting. Simple and no rust issues ever.
"Muskrat" Mike


I often use the Hoppes #9 BLACK POWDER PATCH LUBE & CLEANER.  The Muskrat knows what he's talking about.  I also use plain cold water straight from the tap.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2020, 07:27:57 AM »
The Muskrat does know what he is talking about because I read Hanshi posts! Thanks for the compliment.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline JW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2020, 06:51:24 PM »
When I was a teenager, my old family friend/muzzleloading companion insisted on the hottest water available for cleaning so that's what I did. It nearly drove me mad that I kept getting these rusty patches. When I finally learned from others that it was flash rust from the hot water, I never experienced that again. I have often wondered, however, how many folks still insist that hot or boiling water works like a champ and they never experience flash rusting. Could is have something to do with the iron content in some water?

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7891
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2020, 07:05:19 PM »
Well, it happens in Canada, the USA and in England. Years ago, in the later 1970's a friend in Smithers showed me a letter he had received from the old double-gun English firm,
Holland and Holland. He had sent an antique double percussion gun to them for re-furbishing. It was a 6 bore ball and shot gun.
Holland and Holland returned the gun along with the case he's ordered, but with strict cleaning orders for the gun. Due to the condition of the bores, they had
re-bored the barrels to 5 bore.
The instructions were to remove the barrels for cleaning, remove the nipples and place the breeches in cold (COLD) tap water & using patches on a jag, flush the water into and
out of the tubes until clean. Then to wipe them off with a towel, then dry them with clean patches - then to FLUSH the tubes with a water displacing lubricant like WD40.
Then the DW40 is patched out, and if necessary, use a rust preventing oil like ragoon oil or RIG as a preservative.
I switched to cold water immediately & have not flash-rusted a barrel since.  In BC here, I have found it not necessary to use any oil other than the WD40 for storage as our av.
humidity is only 50%. In more humid areas, perhaps a better rust preventative is needed.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10546
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2020, 07:10:21 PM »
No, what happens is the very hot water heats up the barrel steel, so that the cleaning person cannot dry the bore themselves...it dries by evaporation and leaves iron oxide in the bore.  Rust is barrel CANCER.  Once it starts it cannot be simply washed away.  It requires metal removal to get out.  That can be in some form of lapping or worst case, re-boring.  I don't want iron worms working in my rifle bores.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1431
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2020, 07:47:13 AM »
What do you lube your patches with?
It is possible that the color on your patches is not rust at all but is a buildup (seasoning) of your patch lube in the bore. Wonderlube is the worst I've seen. Some other lubes will also leave a build up. After your barrel is cleaned with water and the water is coming out clear it should be clean. But when you run a clean patch down the bore it comes back colored like rust or with a thick coat of greenish brown waxy looking crud.
The best way I found to remove this crud was by running a  patch soaked in brake cleaner or carb. cleaner until my patches came out clean. Maybe too severe for some folks but I don't want this stuff in my bore and it has done no damage at all to my barrels or accuracy.
Just something to keep in mind as you work through the problem.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7891
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2020, 03:53:24 AM »
I have never had a build up of lube in the barrel. Nor have I had a buildup of fouling in the last 40+ years of shooting BP guns.
I have had the flash rusting Taylor spoke of due to using HOT water for cleaning, but not in any other gin than my first rifle, the TC. I read the letter from H&H  before rebarreling that rifle, so in no others have I ever experience this phenominum.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1467
Re: Cleaning difficulties
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2020, 03:26:23 AM »
I had to chuckle a bit as I read the comments above regarding hot water.

From 1959 to 1962, I shot with a bunch of guys at NSSA shoots all over VA, MD, and PA.  Had a few reenactments also.

After every weekend of shooting, we would go to  our "boss's house, and take the barrels off of our original 1861-1863 Springfield's, and soak them in very hot water in the bathtub.  Then start with the patches - and always, about 10 min later, we would start getting the rust.  And everyone would complain and moan.

This little know-it-all 14 or 15 year old guy had been trained by the Marines out in the Philippines how to shoot, and how to clean.  The Gunny insisted on hot water, then COLD water, to get the barrels clean.  And of course, the primers caused a lot of erosion, which is why he insisted on hot water, then cold water- and no, we weren't using BP.

But when I cleaned MY Springfield, I had no rust problems.  And yeah, we did have WD40 at the time.

Those old fellows (prob 25-45!!) never would switch to the cold water.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.