New Rice lock

[smart dog]

Hi,
Jim Kibler may be hesitant to critique the lock because of his position but I am not.  Below are photos of the Rice Nock lock and an original English lock of middling quality on a gun by Field.  The original lock had been converted to percussion and then somebody converted it back to flint but the internals were never changed.  I am making these comments in the spirit of education and honest assessment. The photo below shows the 2 locks with the original on top.


The Rice lock uses the old mainspring and bridle from the L&R Durs Egg lock. Note that the bend on the original is tighter and the upper leaf is shorter with a longer tab under the bolster. That allows use of a larger barrel without the mainspring breaking into the barrel channel.  Also the lower leaf is higher on the plate allowing more wood bracing the plate along its lower edge.
The photo below shows the thickness of the bridle and the size of the sear on the English original. The bridle does not flex and is a rigid support for the sear and tumbler


The same cannot be said of the Durs Egg bridle, which is thin and can flex allowing the tail to pinch the sear if the sear screw is tightened too far.  Also note the thin little sear.





At rest, the mainspring and stirrup on the English lock are already tucked more into the tumbler than the Rice.  Also note the much beefier stirrup on the original. The original already has mechanical advantage over the Rice. In the next photo, the locks are at half cock.

    





Again the English lock has mechanical advantage because the stirrup is tucked closer to the tumbler spindle (pivot point).  I put green tape under the mainsprings and the pulled the locks back to full cock.  Note how little the stirrup moves up on the original compared with the Rice lock. The leverage is such that the force to pull from half to full eases up on the original like a compound bow but not on the Rice.  The potential mechanical advantage to be gained by the stirrup is wasted on the Rice because the lower leaf of the mainspring needs to be longer yet the upper leaf should be shorter.  That mismatch comes from trying to reduce cost by using an existing spring when a new design was needed.



dave

[Bob Roller]

The mechanism in the antique lock is identical to those I made for years.
My bridle was not heavy but I did fit the sear screw in such a way as to
prevent the locking of the sear unless a very heavy turn was made on that
little screw.I settled on this idea over 50 years ago on both flint and caplocks
and later in 1987 I started making English style "4 pin and 3 pin locks"'
the last two flintlocks I made were on the externals of the L&R Durs Egg and
the last caplock was a Hawken with a non traditional English style 3 pin mechanism.
It's been a good run and I am glad I could do it.
Bob Roller

[Marcruger]

Thank you for the comparison Dave. 

I do think that makers walk a tightrope of tight specs versus tightwads.  If Rice used a new set of parts, and those cost more, I think we'd hear moaning about the price.  I am glad I am not a lock maker. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Bob Roller]

Thank you for the comparison Dave. 

I do think that makers walk a tightrope of tight specs versus tightwads.  If Rice used a new set of parts, and those cost more, I think we'd hear moaning about the price.  I am glad I am not a lock maker. 

God Bless,   Marc

Tradition dictates on most American muzzle loaders that the lock must be the cheapest
thing about the gun.The Brits DID have the right idea when they  made major upgrades
to the part that makes the gun go off and may save a life which is that of the shooter.
For me the 1970's were the worst time when it came to making and selling locks.
I was charging $70 I think at that time and I would hear "WHAT?$70 for a lock?" and my
come back was "The lock is free but the time and labor to make it is NOT".In the late 70's
I got connected with the German black powder shooters and that was a whole new attitude
and they told me that $2 would not stop them and they were impressed with what I offered
and it went on for years.I did other work like high end European cars* and made a lot of bronze
bearings for obsolete automatic transmissions and bushings and shackle bolts and nuts for old
leaf suspension systems like Packard,Lincoln,Stutz,Marmon and Duesenberg used.I also accepted
one of a kind work and that idea  was popular and I made it a point to stress I would do only ONE
bolt or ONE nut or odd size bolts common to old motorcycle and did not add charges for "setting up".
I started the one of a kind work when I got calls asking me if I had a minimum order and my answer
was "I can't make less than one" and that usually paid off with an order for whatever was needed.
When we consider what our money will NOT buy and a new car can surpass the cost of real estate
it seems that $240 or more for an odd mechanism like a gun lock is a bargain.I have no intention
of reviving them and may buy one from Chambers or Kibler if I decide to finish a gun I have started years ago.
* High end European cars and the captive market parts are the reasons we have owned Lincolns for
nearly 50 years.
Bob Roller

[FlintFan]

How does it spark, and are the internals properly hardened? 

[Stoner creek]

I bought one out of the first batch that they released. I had enough confidence in their work to order 5 more. I wouldn’t spend good money and risk the reputation of my work on sub-par components. I’m confident that these locks will perform.

[scottmc]

I saw this lock at Dixons and liked it but I'm left handed so it can't do anything for me other than cause frustration and create jealousy of right handers.  Can anyone tell me the dimensions  of the plate?

[bob in the woods]

Just for the record, my it was never my intention when 1st posting, to bring the maker's quality of work into question. We can each make that decision on our own, and it's a subjective thing. It's the materials, and design that interest me with an emphasis on the design. For instance, that lower leg of the main spring running along the bottom edge of the plate reminds me of guns in the 80's with the lock mortice broken out by a spring that was let loose by a failed stirrup. I got to see one like that up close back in 87 at one of our big annual matches.   Dave's post [ Smart dog ] was spot on re what I was looking for.
Thanks to all !

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Dave for taking the time to explain some of the details of these locks.  Some might ask why a let-off at full cock is desirable?  This decrease in force to go from half to full cock means there is less spring pressure on the tumbler.  Less spring presssure means that there is less force between the tumbler and sear nose.  This decreased pressure results in a lighter trigger pull.  The idea with these locks is to get the tip of the spring as close to the centerline of the tumberler shaft as possible at full cock.

Here's an example from my experience.  Our Ketland style lock has very strong springs.  This is intentional.  Strong springs equate to lock speed provided everything else is set up properly.  In testing this lock, I found that the force required to trip the lock with our set triggers un-set was less than 3 lbs.  This really surprised me do to the notoriously poor geometry of a set trigger when used un-set.  Proper lock geometry allows a nice pull even with strong springs and a less than ideal trigger design. 

Another aspect to note is the length of the sear arm.  Or more specifically the ratio of the length on either side of the sear screw.  This Rice sear appears to be awfully short behind the sear screw.  This equates to a higher force required to trip the sear.

There are other aspects that could be discussed as well.  Not only functional but lots of aesthetic issues.  Again, this isn't an attempt to beat up on anyone, just trying to be open and honest and hopefully increase some understanding and appreciation of locks. 

I'll say this....  If anyone would like to discuss the pros and cons of the locks I make, I would invite it and even encourage it!  This isn't being arrogant or anything like that.  Knowledge and understanding is a good thing.

Jim

[alacran]

I wish I knew how to contact Mr. Rice, and ask him to remark on Smart Dogs consideration of his lock. He has been making locks for well over 30 years, and I would be curious as to his response. Chris Laubachs lock is an exceptional piece of work. But at his price point, very few of us will afford to install one in a gun.  I have heard a lot of badmouthing of some of L&Rs locks but I have had very good service from them. I look forward to seeing Jim Kiblers new lock when he comes out with the "waterproof pan version".

[Stoner creek]

I wish I knew how to contact Mr. Rice, and ask him to remark on Smart Dogs consideration of his lock. He has been making locks for well over 30 years, and I would be curious as to his response. Chris Laubachs lock is an exceptional piece of work. But at his price point, very few of us will afford to install one in a gun.  I have heard a lot of badmouthing of some of L&Rs locks but I have had very good service from them. I look forward to seeing Jim Kiblers new lock when he comes out with the "waterproof pan version".

I’ll pm you his number.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I contacted Rice about some of these issues when I received the first Nock lock.  I say first, because  I sent it back because the stirrup dropped below the lock plate and the sear bar was too short. It was just some assembly errors. Rice did right and sent me a replacement without those issues but in the process I suggested several improvements that could be made to the lock. Below are photos of that first lock.   










There is a difference between "bad mouthing" and honest critique.  I don't bad mouth and I always explain the why of a comment I make.

dave

[sdilts]

scottmc,
The dimensions of the lock plate that I have is 4 13/16" long and 15/16" wide.

[alacran]

[

There is a difference between "bad mouthing" and honest critique.  I don't bad mouth and I always explain the why of a comment I make.

dave

I didn't mean to suggest that you were bad mouthing L & R locks. I said I have heard a lot bad mouthing in regards to L&R locks. Though this lock was designed by Liston Rice, the L&R company has nothing to do with the production of this lock.
In fact I looked into your concerns about the mainspring and you suggested that it is from a n L&R Durrs Egg lock. Well I got one out to look at it. Superficially it kind of looks like a Durrs Egg because of the little doodad where it goes up on the bolster.. But on the Egg lock the mainspring sits pretty much like it does on the antique lock that you showed. In fact I did the same thing that you did with the tape and on the L&R lock there is only about 1/16 th of difference between full cock and half cock.
I decided to look at a Davis Twigg lock in a TOW catalog and the mainspring in it is configured almost exactly like Rice's Nock lock. It is shown in the half cock position, and seems in the photo to have a kink in it.
The L&R lock I was looking at is an early production lock without the boss on the bottom of the frizzen and the frizzen screw is  installed from the outside of the lock recessed into the bridle. I will take out a much later production Egg lock out of my smooth bore and compare them.
The reason I want to talk to MR. Rice is to ask exactly what original lock he patterned this lock on. Though I'm sure he told me that last year, I have since forgotten it.
Actually I spent time studying what you were saying about lock design and found lots of merit in it.

[scottmc]

scottmc,
The dimensions of the lock plate that I have is 4 13/16" long and 15/16" wide.

Thanks sdilts.   I figured no one saw my question in the middle of the text.  Perfect size but wrong side.  Just my luck.🙄

[rich pierce]

All L&R bashing to the contrary- I’ll take a Durs Egg against whatever you choose to bring. And win.

[alacran]

All L&R bashing to the contrary- I’ll take a Durs Egg against whatever you choose to bring. And win.

I agree with you Rich. I am more than pleased with the one I put on my smooth bore. It is quick and very kind to flints.

[Daryl]

I have or had L&R locks on a few rifles. Every one has been a good lock, with the Dickert being exceptionally fast.

[Marcruger]

"Tradition dictates on most American muzzle loaders that the lock must be the cheapest
thing about the gun." 

I hear you Bob.  There are few things that leave a bad taste in your mouth quite like getting a "chick" sound when you expect "Chick-BOOOOM".  A poor lock is a blight on our planet, and I will always pay for the best lock I can get.  My next gun will have a Chris Evrard tuned round faced Chambers.  What beautiful work Chris does.  Crisp.  Worth every cent and more. 

To follow up what some here just said about L&R locks, a good friend and fine builder has used L&R locks since their beginnings, and reportedly has had no returns or complaints from customers. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I understand and appreciate the quest for quality. I have one of Chris Laubach’s locks and it feels different than any lock I’ve ever cycled. I’m not even talking appearance here. Blindfolded you could hand me a dozen locks and I would know this one by feel and sound as I bring it to half and full cock, snap the frizzen closed, and dry fire it. This lock is in the jewelry class by appearance but the action is equally astounding. It’s too good a lock for a fella like me to use, basically.

At the same time, style usually dictates what locks I use. I know many others like Smart Dog who do the same (not suggesting I’m in his class as a builder). Then tune it till it works as needed.

One of my next projects is a bridle-less trade gun lock for a 1750s Wilson trade gun. Because that’s what belongs on that gun.

I have a .62 fowling-piece that I built from one of a collection of parts some years ago. it has a Caywood Wilson Trade Lock. B. Wilson English Trade gun lock, 6" X 1 1/16", unbridled frizzen, uses 7'8" flint, engraved with bow/arrows/quiver on plate, $175.   I also have a .54 rifle with a Chambers Round faced English lock and a .58 rifle with a Chambers Early Ketland... The Early Ketland is smoother and faster I think than the English Round-faced, but the bridleless Wilson lock is in a different class, very tight, fast movement. Very precise! It feels like more quality.  That being said all perform perfectly well at the range or when hunting....

[smart dog]

Hi,
I mentioned previously that the mainspring on the Rice could use some modification.  I went ahead and did one task and I want to show why.  The Rice lock is on the bottom in the photo below and at rest. Note the wide main bend in the spring and how close the lower leaf is to the lower edge of the plate.

The next photo shows the lock at full cock.  Note the upward bend in the lower leaf of the spring and that the portion of the spring near the bend does not close very much. There is great stress on that lower leaf and it is centered in the middle at the bend.



So I heat the bend bright red hot, placed it on a little anvil, and hammered it down.  Then I heated the lower leaf red hot and gave it a gradual downward arc. I then hardened and tempered it.  Let me be clear.  I am not advocating for anyone to do this because I am certain I just voided any warranty that came with the lock. I am not worried because I can fix any problem I create but many of you may not be set up to do that.  I am doing this to demonstrate some things I wrote previously.  As they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words.
The Rice lock is on top in the photo below.



Note how much more room there is below the mainspring.  You can leave a nice ledge of wood there to support the lower edge of the lock when inletting.  In the 2 photos below note the space between the leaves of the spring at the location of the pen point.  When I bring the lock to full cock, watch how it closes.





Note how the lower leaf is almost straight and the entire length of the lower leaf is working much more evenly then before.  The resulting spring is now stronger than before and probably less likely to break because the stress is not concentrated at a bend in the middle of the lower leaf. I eventually will make a different spring for the lock and probably change the tumbler a bit to create better leverage assisted by the stirrup.  I'll post photos when I do.

dave