Engraving White

[frogwalking]

Alternative method of laying out engraving.  I bought some engraving white from TOW, and it is clumpy, leaving shiney lumps and then thin spots.  No amount of shaking or stirring seem to be able to make it lay on smoothly so I can draw on it.  How about throwing it in the can and drawing out engraving on the bare metal with fine sharpie? 

[California Kid]

Thin it with a little water or spit. Works well

[Ed Wenger]

Very fine sharpies work for me...  I've never had any luck with engraving white.  Check out the Engravers Cafe, it's a site like ALR that deals with engraving, not sure of the address but it should come up if you Google it. 

                Ed

[Randy Hedden]

Engraver's Cafe:

http://www.igraver.com/forum/

Randy Hedden

[Acer Saccharum]

I have had the best luck with the engraver's or Chines white in this way: get a little on the end of your finger, very dry, and spread it around. if too dry, add a little moisture. If too wet, it will bead up.

Clear as mud, right?

[David Rase]

I have had the best luck with the engraver's or Chines white in this way: get a little on the end of your finger, very dry, and spread it around. if too dry, add a little moisture. If too wet, it will bead up.

Clear as mud, right?

White mud, aka Chinese White?
DMR

[LRB]

  I have had very good luck with Laurel Mt. Chinese white, but you have to be careful to not get the coating too thick on the metal.

[Dphariss]

Alternative method of laying out engraving.  I bought some engraving white from TOW, and it is clumpy, leaving shiney lumps and then thin spots.  No amount of shaking or stirring seem to be able to make it lay on smoothly so I can draw on it.  How about throwing it in the can and drawing out engraving on the bare metal with fine sharpie? 

There are many ways. Lynton McKenzie tells how to use mutton tallow and beeswax to draw on in his beginner video. He was engraving for a living and every penny he didn't spend on something went in his pocket. Have not tried it. I tend to use a magic marker to color the steel then draw on that with a fine soft mechanical pencil.
But this is another "what works for you" thing. I don't like the white paint stuff either. You can try thinning the stuff but I can't recall what it says on the bottle. You could ask for a refund.

Dan

[David Rase]

Another method is to "dull up" your brass by rubbing it an eraser.  You can then draw on it with a soft lead pencil.
DMR

[Acer Saccharum]

"dull up"

Where can I get some of that Dave? is that a west coast grocery store item?

You can also take some Plasticene modeling clay, and lightly pad it onto the brass, which makes a dull finish. Draw on it with a pencil, which goes thru the dull, leaving a bright line.

Acer

[smart dog]

Frogwalking,
Good engraving is almost impossible without a good drawing on the metal.  In my own experience (others may do better), I find it hard to draw a good design with a pencil on the metal regardless of the whiting.  The pencil lead is usually too thick.  If you have a computer and inkjet printer you can do the following:  draw your design and then scan it into the computer (even powerpoint will do).  Get inkjet transparencies and print the design on the transparency in a mirror image in grayscale or black and white.  Cut out around the design leaving some extra transparency to allow taping it to the metal.  Cover the metal area with a thin coat of Bullseye shellac that has been thinned between 5:1 to 10:1 (alcohol to shellac).  Let the shellac dry but blow gently on it while it dries.  It should dry a little cloudy.  Place the design on the metal, ink side down, tape it in place with scotch tape and burnish the back with your finger nail.  The design should be nicely transferred to the metal.  Go to Handengravingforum.com or the site mentioned above for a number of similar methods.

dave 

[rick landes]

I don't know any professional engravers that use Chinese white anymore.  Clean the metal and frost it some by sanding with some 1000 grit paper in a circular motion. Then just put a very thin coat of motor oil on it with your finger , you can draw on it with a lead pencil very well.  GRS sells some .3mm pencils that work like a champ. I keep about three of these on my bench at all times. Also Get some of the retractable fine point erasures and sharpen them just like a pencil. they will enable you to erase small sections without erasing the whole design.  This was the method used by the late great Frank Hendrix. It works better than anything I have found.  I have a small bottle with a piece of cotton in it and some oil in it. I just dab my finger on the cotton and rub it on the metal.
     But then --- what do I know? 

Jerry,
What does the thin coat of oil do? All I can think of is it would seem to make the lead not want to stick to the metal..
Thanks!

[Robby]

I don't know any professional engravers that use Chinese white anymore.  Clean the metal and frost it some by sanding with some 1000 grit paper in a circular motion. Then just put a very thin coat of motor oil on it with your finger , you can draw on it with a lead pencil very well.  GRS sells some .3mm pencils that work like a champ. I keep about three of these on my bench at all times. Also Get some of the retractable fine point erasures and sharpen them just like a pencil. they will enable you to erase small sections without erasing the whole design.  This was the method used by the late great Frank Hendrix. It works better than anything I have found.  I have a small bottle with a piece of cotton in it and some oil in it. I just dab my finger on the cotton and rub it on the metal.
     But then --- what do I know? 
I tried this yesterday, it works great, thank you Jerry!
Robby

[Blacksmoke]

I've tried all of the above mentioned techniques for laying out engraving designs on metal and have not had good success with any of them! esp. the one using wax.  As you know good engraving is only as good as the design layout and keeping that layout in place while cutting is the hardest part.  Now I use " liquid paper". Spread it thin with the applicator on the prepared metal surface( as Jerry instructed)-- let dry for a few minutes and wala you have paper to draw on using a soft lead pencil.  Then I will scribe in the design with a sharp stylus  to secure the pattern from being accidentally rubbed off while cutting. The scribed lines will be cut away by the graver and if some still remain the will be removed whilst deburring with very fine emory paper.     That's the way I do it,   Hugh

[Kentucky Jeff]

The way I was taught at Conner Prairie by Herr Schippers is you make a reverse copy of the engraving you want on any ink jet copy machine.  You can draw it yourself or copy someone elses patterns from a rubbing!.  Or even make copies from some pattern book.  The beauty of this method is you can also size it to your work by making the copies bigger or smaller.   Then tape your layout print side down on the steel (which is why you do a reverse image) and be sure no tape covers your pattern.  Then dip a Q-tip in some acetone (don't use the plastic handle Q-tips) and rub the acetone on the paper enough to get it wet.  Then burnish the pattern with your thumb.  Pull up the pattern and you will have a perfect image of it on your barrel and you won't be able to rub it off easily if at all.  Of course its very easy to make several patterns so you can do an identical layout on lets say the different flats of the barrel etc...

[Blacksmoke]

Jerry:   Granted the method of design transfer that you are suggesting IS far superior to any of the others and would have to employed if one is doing the type of engraving that you specialize in.  However  the Bolino style of engraving , which you exampled in your post and I must say is exquisite,  is not to be found on original Kentucky Longrifles or their European predecessors which it appears that most of the people on this forum are making. This is not to diminish in any way your suggestion for design transfer but to point out that lessor techniques will also work for engraving longrifles.    Hugh Toenjes

[LynnC]

Upon someones suggestion here, I tried a very thin coat of White Shoe Polish.

It is easily drawn on with pencil and has worked A-OK for my primitive efforts

[smart dog]

Hi Hugh,
I agree that longrifle engraving was pretty crude compared with European work and drawing on the metal using some sort of whiting is adequate.  However, I  have trouble drawing smooth simple curves freehand on metal.  It is pretty easy to draw on relatively flat patchboxes, but curved shapes such as buttplates, trigger guards, and barrel tangs are harder.  I always have to figure out some way to rest my elbow on something to keep my hand steady.  For me, it is so much easier to comfortably draw a design on paper and then transfer it to the metal regardless of its simplicity.  The only exceptions to that for me are line borders (such as thick and thin) and nick and dot borders.  I draw or scribe my guides for those directly on the metal.  I think it is worthwhile for folks to learn good transfer techniques even if they only want to engrave simple designs.

dave

[Blacksmoke]

Dave:  I agree with you-- learn all you can in any realm,  you never know when the knowledge will pay off.  I did not want beginners to get frustrated for the lack of high tech. equip. and supplies.  It really is amazing what can be done with primitive tools and techniques.   For "low tech" design transfer I make my own "carbon paper" by using tracing paper to trace the design and then redraw it on the reverse with a very soft lead pencil.   An "all surface" pencil works well.   You now have a form of carbon paper.   Lay this (right side up) on the area to be cut, either wood or liquid paper( which you have applied to any metal surface) and re trace the design with a regular pencil.   The carbon from the soft lead will transfer to the wood or liquid paper.   The tracing paper will also allow you to position the pattern correctly upon your work because of it's translucency.    It is simple , cheap, easy and it works.       Hugh Toenjes