question on a muzzle cap

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
I have been working on the muzzle cap of the Hawken full stock I have it fitted to the shoulder fine but when it is on with the barrel installed, there are gaps around the sides of the barrel flats. Here is a picture of the cap:




The gaps are fairly even although the angle of the picture doesnt make that so clear. When I install the barrel with tenons I have these gaps. I am not sure why, the barrel sits flat and true in the stock. I was thinking of just adding material to the end of the cap and filing it to the barrel flats and that is probably what I will do. But I figured I would put this to the forum and see what you guys think. I can fix it but I would really like to know why it has the gaps. I have been using another Hawken full stock for a model the rifle was built by Brant Selb. The cap on this rifle has some slight gaps and it looks like end of the cap has been filed to fit. He used some glass fill at the end of the cap. The wood at the end of my stock is dressed down similar to the other rifle. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Thanks,
Rob

[John Shaw]

The top of the cap is different on the left and right sides. It's hard to tell from the photo but it looks like the barrel flats and the cap flats are different widths. Any kind of epoxy filler will show and look like shoddy work forever. I'd suggest a new cap filed to fit.

JS

[borderdogs]

Thanks John. The photo is poor and was taken at an angle so it doesnt look even but it is for the most part. The way I would fix it would be to solder a new front of the cap and file it. I wouldnt use an epoxy filler. What Brant did on the rifle I have is fill the end of the wood of the stock to the back inside of the cap the epoxy doesnt show.

I actually have another cap but it is the same one I already have and shows the same cap. I appreciate the advise John.
Rob

[rich pierce]

What’s the cap made of? Why not saw off the end and solder on a new end that won’t have gaps?

[fahnenschmied]

Maybe I am missing something...why not trim the forearm down till the nosecap is contacting the barrel fully?  It really looks like it isnt inletted far enough.

[Chowmi]

Borderdogs,
Something to look at would be is to see if the sides of the muzzle cap that are along the side flats of the barrel are too tight. If they don’t fit right, it may be pushing the cap down.
If the barrel was inlet well, and sat correctly before you put the cap on, then something is wrong with the cap.
Or, is the cap somehow twisted? In your picture, our right side (left side of gun) it looks like the side flat sits correctly, but the other side does not. Is it either too tight width wise, or twisted somehow? 
Is the right side of the barrel pushing the cap down? 
A little filing might solve the problem. If you were going to trash the cap anyway, then filing won’t lose you anything.

Norm.

[Chowmi]

One more thing,  the culprit may not be the front end of the cap. It might be the side of the cap along the side flat of the barrel is too tight somewhere, pushing it down.

Norm.

[rich pierce]

Basically, using a pre-formed muzzle cap has always seemed backwards to me.

[Stophel]

Did you fit it with the barrel in the stock?  Don't.  Fit the cap to the stock, not the barrel.  The nosecap should become part of the stock.  Get it fitted then file the inside of it to match the octagon shaped barrel inlet.  Then set the barrel down into the stock and do the very final fitting to get the barrel set down in place.

[borderdogs]

Thanks for all the replies I really appreciate them. The cap is a Ted Cash product I happened to have two of them. When I saw I had a problem, the first thought I had was to make the inlet deeper and I did but it didnt fix it and the wood was rather thin and taking more didnt seem like an option. The second thought I had was to make a new one or to grind off the face and solder a solid front and file it to the octagonal shape of the barrel.

I took one of the caps I had an filed the sides so it wasnt so tight and that helped a bit but didnt fix it. I tried to take a little more wood away from the area again too and that helped but it didnt fix it  its very thin now. The cap easily slides on and off the stock so the fit is good when I put the barrel in the stock and wedge it in place the cap sits as it appears in the picture.

This is my first build in nearly 40 years and I have learned a lot in the process and this forum has been a great help with all the questions I have had. I know I can fix this but I have been trying to understand the causes of stuff like this so I can avoid them the next time.
Thanks,
Rob

[J. Talbert]

Has it been asked... does the cap fit flush and proper to the barrel when it’s not on the stock?
If it does then it would seem that the cap is not properly fitted to the  to the stock. So correcting the fit to the stock would correct the problem.
Has this been ruled out, did I miss that?

Jeff

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The barrel should not have to be 'wedged' into the stock.  That may be spreading the wood enough to cock the nose cap to some unsuitable angle.  Drawfile the barrel as in getting ready to finish it, then try it in the channel.  If still too tight, remove wood until it drops in easily.  From your description of the process you have taken, it sounds to me like your jumping ahead before you finish a previous and essential aspect of construction.

[borderdogs]

By wedge I was talking about the wedges/keys I was using that are used to keep the barrel to the stock. But I do have to push the barrel down into the barrel channel to get it to seat. The cap fits flush to the barrel separate to being on the stock. But I think the barrel channel is too tight and that is where the problem is. I spent some time putting and pulling out the barrel and although is drops in it does not seat into the channel freely. Using lamp black to point out areas to clean up. I am going to spend some time cleaning up that channel and keep trying the cap to see what the fit is like. In the meantime I did sliver solder a blank on the front of the cap so I can file it to shape once I clean up the channel. I have a second cap that I havent done anything to so if there is a slight gap once the channel is done using this one I can file the blank to shape. I appreciate all the comments they are very helpful!
Thanks,
Rob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rob:  with the barrel fully seated and secured in its channel, you should be able to slip that nose cap onto the end of the stock without it leaving gaps at the end.  More wood needs to be removed where it contacts the stock too much, and is forced away from the barrel.  As you start to push the cap onto the stock, watch from the side to see if it is being forced away from the barrel by the wood...just remove the offending wood, and it'll fit up perfectly.  Adding more brass to the front end isn't the answer, as far as I'm concerned.

[Bob McBride]

If the cap will push up to a good fit without the pin in you may be able to take a little from the top of your end lug cutout and bend the bottom of the lug up, thereby tightening it....if that makes any sense.... As Chowmi said it looks like it's hugging the barrel too tight...

[Not English]

Rob, I agree with D. Taylor. It's pointless to fit the cap to the barrel or forestock without doing both at the same time. One thing I frequently found when I was teaching classes was that  people would frequently forget to file/cut a bevel on the very outside end of the forestock. If you look closely at the inside of the muzzle cap, there is usually a very small bead of solder around the inside. Frequently this is enough to create the gap you show if not accounted for.

[borderdogs]

I think I learned a lesson with this that I will use with the next rifle build. As is fairly obvious I did not fit the cap and the barrel together when I was fitting the barrel in the barrel channel I was looking at getting a tight fit and a uniform seating of the bottom barrel flat which I have. But prior to fitting the cap to the stock the barrel was a snug fit and required a slight squeeze to seat it. Less and less every time I took the barrel in and out of the stock but it was still there. When I fit the cap to the stock I had those gaps around the octagonal and figured it was the wood around the cap inlet. What I found was it wasnt the wood around the cap inlet it was the wood in the barrel channel and when I started to take wood away from the first and second flat (not the bottom though) on both sides not only did the barrel get easier to put in and take out the gaps around the cap started to go away. Go figure! I guess stupid is as stupid does! I have a good stock of suitable steel I thought I would use this as an exercise to make a new cap and close those gaps. I did take some of that steel and silver solder a new front of one of the caps I have too but in the end I will be able to use the unaltered cap now that I fixed the barrel channel. Lesson learned. I really appreciate all the helpful suggestions from you all this was an enlightening process for me.
Rob