Author Topic: Double rifle and gun makers? (Read 14302 times)

Naphtali · « **on:** August 09, 2009, 07:23:03 PM »

Please identify double rifle and gun makers -- and gun makers capable of doing the work although they may not solicit it -- who work with flintlocks.

Dphariss · « **Reply #1 on:** August 09, 2009, 08:30:35 PM »

What kinda of double rifle?
Side by side with sights on each barrel. Side by side regulated or not?
Swivel breech?
Dan

Naphtali · « **Reply #2 on:** August 09, 2009, 10:51:33 PM »

Quote from: Dphariss on August 09, 2009, 08:30:35 PM

What kinda of double rifle?
Side by side with sights on each barrel. Side by side regulated or not?
Swivel breech?
Dan

Ooops. I am interested in side-by-side rifles and guns, one sight assembly, unregulated and regulated. I mention both to not limit the universe too narrowly.

jerrywh · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2009, 02:24:56 AM »

Try this web sight
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1&PHPSESSID=c555cc471ae4a9295dfb8fd136365724

Don Getz · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2009, 05:29:49 AM »

Nappy.......you mentioned that you wanted it to have one set of sights, but also didn't care if it was "regulated, or unregulated", Perhaps you don't know what that means? If it has just one set of sights, and is not regulated, that means that both barrels probably will not shoot to the same point of aim. When they are regulated, that means that they have been adjusted so that they will both shoot to the same point of aim. Usually when they are regulated they are
adjusted to hit the same spot at a given distance with a specified load......when either one of these changes, they will no
longer shoot to the same point. Not many people build them, they are usually heavy, rather big, and not much fun to build, and I would think if you found someone to do a good job on one, it would be expensive.........Don

T*O*F · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2009, 05:47:48 AM »

Quote

If it has just one set of sights, and is not regulated, that means that both barrels probably will not shoot to the same point of aim. When they are regulated, that means that they have been adjusted so that they will both shoot to the same point of aim. Usually when they are regulated they are
adjusted to hit the same spot at a given distance with a specified load.

Don,
You are confused. Double shotguns are regulated so that the patterns cross at a given distance, usually dependent on what game bird is being hunted. Standard is 40 yards, but can range anywhere from 15 to 70 yards.

A double rifle is regulated so that each barrel shoots parallel to the other. If each barrel is fitted with sights, that barrel will shoot where aimed. If a single set of sights is mounted on the rib, the barrels will shoot to the right and left of the aiming point, usually by the distance between the centerlines of the bores.

People often confuse shotgun regulation with rifle regulation, but they are different.

Don Getz · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2009, 06:03:06 AM »

TPF......NO, I think you are confused. I agree with you about shotguns, but we weren't talking about them. Double
rifles are also adjusted to hit at certain point of aim, and at a specific range, with a specific load. If you don't believe me,
call one of the English shops that still make them, or Kreighoff, which I know still makes them.......Don

beleg2 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2009, 02:01:16 PM »

Don,
I'm with TOF, a well "regulated" double rifle shoots parallel to the POA.
There have been much debate about this on Internet.
For some writers "regulation" deals only on sight setting.
If barrels cross at a distance there would be no use for the long range (200-500 yards) express sights.
Double rifles are hunting guns so if left barrel shoots 1" to the left it is OK.

JMHO
Martin

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2009, 02:39:03 PM »

All the English doubles I have had the pleasure of shooting cross at about 50 yards.

northmn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »

I admit that doubles are made for close up and dirty work mostly. Just a thought, but if a double crosses at a given range, then at longer ranges it will continually get farther apart. I know Kodiak at one time put two rear sights on their doubles to get around regulation problems. I guess some may have sighted in one barrel and used the other one for close up? While we picture the English double in heavy express calibers some were also made in less formidible calibers. Really I am more curious about them and my comments are as much of a question as a comment. I had a cheap CVA double that I sold to a bear hunter because it would shoot farther apart the farther you shot it.

DP

T*O*F · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2009, 05:22:56 PM »

Quote

NO, I think you are confused.

I may suffer from CRS once in a while, but not in this case.

Quote

Double rifles are also adjusted to hit at certain point of aim, and at a specific range, with a specific load.

All rifles are adjusted to do that.........it's called a "ZERO." That does not mean that both bullet will strike in the same hole at that zero.......they strike side by side. They are hunting dangerous game in most cases and want the bullets to hit where they are aiming. Their loads are zeroed for the specific bullet they are using and the zero is "point blank range" for the distances they will be shooting. In another thread, Daryl mentioned that his gun shot 3 feet high and 3 feet left with a certain powder. When hunting dangerous game, you don't take those chances. You use the load developed for your gun. Doubles are used because no other gun offers a quicker second shot which is required when your prey is closing fast on you and you don't have time to think. Doubles are instinctive and that second shot comes in milliseconds.

Quote

If you don't believe me, call one of the English shops that still make them, or Kreighoff, which I know still makes them

Perhaps it would behoove you to do the same. If you read the postings after mine, you will understand why the "same point of impact" or crossing shots are a folly. For more reading, get a copy of the August issue of American Rfileman. The whole issue is devoted to double rifles and includes reviews of currently doubles by Blaser, Heym, Merkel, and Krieghoff.

T*O*F · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2009, 09:20:08 PM »

Quote

I mention both to not limit the universe too narrowly.

We seem to have gotten sidetracked on English doubles and Wenders. Perhaps you have something else in mind.........perhaps an American flint double longrifle?

There are several double Bedfords shown in Calvin Hetrick's book. I have all the components to build a Peter White Bedford and may actually get around to building it in the next couple of years. Also, there were hooked breech doubles with no rib and separate sights on each barrel. The barrels could be removed separately.

What style is your "dream double?"

Naphtali · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2009, 09:57:52 PM »

It is not that I do not care whether or not the rifle would be regulated. I'm attempting to identify people who can do double gun work -- first.

Regulating muzzleloading guns is less of a challenge than the process with cartridge guns. Each barrel's loading data can be specific for that barrel. While a hassle, it yields more flexibility to maker and user. And I've picked up some unusual tweaks from a friend who has futzed with point of impact on cartridge rifles successfully. Lots of arrows still in the quiver.

Like making rabbit stew, first get a rabbit.

Don Getz · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2009, 02:33:17 AM »

Back to those big-bore double rifles. I guess my only question would be..."what is the meaning of regulating barrels".
I always thought it meant to adjust them so that they would hit to nearly the same point of aim. After reading thru the
August issue of the Rifleman, I found several references to "regulating". On page 58, under the title "Today's Working
Doubles", near the end it states "they also receive considerable handwork for barrel regulation". Also, at the bottom
of the same page, in describing the Blaser S2, the last sentence..."A muzzle adjustment fine-tunes point of impact"
On page 59, in discussing the Heym M88PH, in the right column they discuss using Hornady's Dangerous Game Series
Ammo for regulating barrels. On page 107, half way down the column they talk about firing each gun at 50 yards, three
shots, over sandbags, to "check regulation". Just what does "regulation" mean? If it means something other than an
attempt to get each barrel to hit close to the point of aim, well, then I am all wet. Don

sz · « **Reply #14 on:** August 11, 2009, 05:59:55 AM »

Get in touch with me directly. I have done some.
I can coach you if you need help.

nthe10ring · « **Reply #15 on:** August 11, 2009, 04:28:13 PM »

Mike Ehinger in Stedman NC makes and restores double flint guns. He primarily works with double flint guns and has for 30 or more years. If you need his contact information email me and Ill get it to you.

Jerry Fisher

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** August 11, 2009, 06:29:20 PM »

Quote from: Don Getz on August 11, 2009, 02:33:17 AM

Back to those big-bore double rifles. I guess my only question would be..."what is the meaning of regulating barrels".
I always thought it meant to adjust them so that they would hit to nearly the same point of aim. After reading thru the
August issue of the Rifleman, I found several references to "regulating". On page 58, under the title "Today's Working
Doubles", near the end it states "they also receive considerable handwork for barrel regulation". Also, at the bottom
of the same page, in describing the Blaser S2, the last sentence..."A muzzle adjustment fine-tunes point of impact"
On page 59, in discussing the Heym M88PH, in the right column they discuss using Hornady's Dangerous Game Series
Ammo for regulating barrels. On page 107, half way down the column they talk about firing each gun at 50 yards, three
shots, over sandbags, to "check regulation". Just what does "regulation" mean? If it means something other than an
attempt to get each barrel to hit close to the point of aim, well, then I am all wet. Don

Regulating any double barrel using a single sighting plain means to adjust it until the point of impact is the same with the same sight picture. Most *shotguns are regulated to shoot to a given point at a given range and these will often "cross" with slugs or solid shot as a result. *Rifles* are set up to shoot *parallel* IF done right as I recall.
I will dig up African Rifles and Cartridges and The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles and maybe one or two others and see if I can get some documentation.
Dan

jerrywh · « **Reply #17 on:** August 11, 2009, 06:34:06 PM »

There is a great book called [ building double rifles on shotgun actions.] All the answers are in there.
You will not like the price of a good set of double rifle barrels.

T*O*F · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2009, 07:24:49 PM »

Quote

Regulating any double barrel using a single sighting plain means to adjust it until the point of impact is the same with the same sight picture. Most *shotguns are regulated to shoot to a given point at a given range and these will often "cross" with slugs or solid shot as a result. *Rifles* are set up to shoot *parallel* IF done right as I recall.

Don,
Dan is exactly right and has re-iterated what I said earlier. Regulation is the "act" of mating a pair of barrels to shoot as a pair for their intended purpose.

If you take a pair of straight octagon rifle barrels that are bored on center and the flats are planed on center, then they should shoot parallel when mated.

Shotgun barrels are thick at the breech and taper to very thin at the muzzle AND they are round. They must be filed flat at the breeches and have a spacer inserted at the muzzle to make the patterns cross at the required patterning distance AND have a tapered rib to provide sufficient elevation so the gun doesn't shoot over. Because shotgun barrels are so thin at the muzzle, it is not always possible to get them regulated properly. Final regulation is accomplished by filing bevels on the muzzles to throw the pattern in the desired direction.

Rifles barrels are also round and tapered, but are much thicker. They must be filed on the insides so that both barrels will shoot parallel. This can be done mathematically by using the same formula used to match front and rear sight heights, but using barrel wall thicknesses at the muzzle and breech. A tapered rib is not required for elevation because that function is handled by the sights mounted on the rib. The "zero" of the gun is then determined by load development so both barrels print tightly within the kill zone of the animal being hunted. That load and bullet combo is provided with the gun, usually along with a mold, just as Roy Weatheby provided a sub-moa target with his proprietary cartridge used to achieve that accuracy.

I may provide some pictures later of a pair of unmounted, regulated barrels for further clarification.

Naphtali · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:25:10 PM »

Many thanks to everyone for the information. I have much to digest. I have one iron in the fire; whether or not it works out I should know within 45 days. I'll keep you posted as I am elated, or horrified, or intensely disappointed by my progress reports - whichever the case may be. I kind've prefer elated, though.

beleg2 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2009, 09:28:48 PM »

If you take a pair of straight octagon rifle barrels that are bored on center and the flats are planed on center, then they should shoot parallel when mated.

TOF,
If you solder both barrels parallel they should shoot apart because of the horizontal component of recoil. Barrels are soldered with convergence.
John Pondoro Taylor made a good explanation on his book "African Rifles and cartridges".

Martin

Don Getz · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:07:34 AM »

TOF.....I was going to respond to some of your last comments, but, I refuse to converse with anyone any longer who
refuses to use his name. .......Don

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:26:11 AM »

Don, clean yer glasses. Dave's name is right at the bottom of every one of his posts in that scroll work, and TOF syands for The Old Fox. Boy, you are becoming the Andy Rooney of this site.

Bill

T*O*F · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:43:45 AM »

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I refuse to converse with anyone any longer who refuses to use his name

That's OK, Don. Familiarity breeds contempt. Everyone else seems to know who I am because as Bill just stated my name is at the bottom of every one of my postings and if that ain't good enough they can go to my website which is listed in the directory.....but that requires a bit of independent effort.

A rag is in the mail. Please use it to wipe the egg off your face with my compliments.

$:-\$

(The smileys are for the moderators who don't understand what a joke is, but one of them will probably delete this anyhow.)

jerrywh · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2009, 12:44:31 AM »

I can't read it very good either.

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Author Topic: Double rifle and gun makers? (Read 14302 times)

Naphtali

Naphtali

beleg2

northmn

Naphtali

nthe10ring

Naphtali

beleg2