Author Topic: Greetings! Black Powder question  (Read 8799 times)

Thlayli

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2020, 05:21:07 PM »
This is some good stuff, thanks.  Received my "Flintlocks:  A Practical Guide", what a great resource. 

What do you guys swab your barrels out with between shots?   A dry patch?  If wet, with what, water?

Online MuskratMike

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2020, 06:05:08 PM »
Unless I am shooting a lot of shots (over 30) I don't swab between shots. With the lube I use and the patches I use I don't feel the need to. 20th one goes down just as easy as the first. In the Pacific NW we don't seem to get the "crud" ring some talk about. I believe that is directly related to your humidity as much as the lube and patch but that is a subjective comment with nothing to back it up with. Good luck and keep making that withe smoke. "Muskrat" Mike.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2020, 06:24:35 PM »
NEVER use a dry patch.  It can easily get stuck and the race is on to get it out.
As Muskrat said.... if you抳e got a good patch and ball combo, and a good lube, you don抰 need to run a cleaning patch between shots.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2020, 07:05:08 PM »
One of the most important items in using thicker patches and not needing to clean between shots
is the condition of the muzzle.
Muzzle as received from the barrel company has a machine cut crown with sharp corners which cut thicker patches.



This is the same rifle/crown after smoothing. This smoothing allows loading tighter combinations without cutting the patches.



This, is how to do it. With emery or wet/dry paper, rotating your wrist, then turn the barrel 180 degrees and have at it again. That
give a perfectly concentric crown & only takes a few miniutes.



Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2020, 09:55:47 PM »
Not trying to be argumentive. Just a little info. I swab between shots for many reasons.

Here's one of them.

Watch the first 4 shot group he shoots and what he says about it.


Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2020, 10:27:28 PM »
OldMtnMan, I get what your saying, and it's reasonable. Mike says with an unwiped barrel he's grouping a half inch left of his group with a wiped barrel. He's decided to use the 'wipe between each shot' method because, as he says, "a .36 fouls quickly". I find that's true if you're using particular lubes in particular climates. I recently, with a new lube mixture, shot 25 unwiped from my .36 with no more difficulty loading that the first and I checked the breech with a scraper along the way and was getting little to no build up. If I can get those results, that's what I choose as if it's a step I can skip, I choose to skip it, and on a gun I hunt squirrels with on a day that the trees are alive with the little critters I want to reload quickly. That said, with my deer guns I do whats best for a one or two shot scenario. Anyway, that's my contribution. To each his own, I says..

Thlayli

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2020, 10:39:47 PM »
For those in the pro-swab between shots camp, what do you swab with?

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2020, 10:46:16 PM »
Tow.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2020, 11:09:18 PM »
 
OldMtnMan, I get what your saying, and it's reasonable. Mike says with an unwiped barrel he's grouping a half inch left of his group with a wiped barrel. He's decided to use the 'wipe between each shot' method because, as he says, "a .36 fouls quickly".

With the ball and patch combinations I use in my .36 through my .69, I find none of them foul at all & especially the .36.  Rest groups remain consistent, all day long.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2020, 12:27:32 AM »
Daryl..........I would love to see you loading a .54 with your tight setup. Please use the gun ramrod and Mink Oil. I just want to see you do it and i'll give it a try again.

Multiple shots with no swabbing would really help too. I can't make that tight of a fit work. Maybe if I see you do it i'll pick up something i'm not doing.

Can you make a video like that?


Offline WadePatton

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2020, 01:14:38 AM »
For those in the pro-swab between shots camp, what do you swab with?

Thlayli you've uncorked a debate that goes 'round and 'round and 'round here.

Wet patch or tow, this is the key for wiping a dirty bore.  Actually you could put tow down dry, it's not going to get stuck like jag/patch can.  Tow is used with a worm. 

Have you seen any of Bob's new shooter series videos?  Maybe he answers some of your questions there.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWok-rzaQZIzJ4fjDSVsPjx3mSzLC5APp


« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 01:31:53 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2020, 01:41:26 AM »
I don't have a .54, but I do have a .50 that I use .022" in with a .495" ball. I guess we could do another video before the summer is gone, Pete. The one where I'm loading my .45, I'm using WWWF for lube. I think I've sent that one to you, along with Taylor loading his .50 Virginia with .595" ball and .020" patch.
 So yeah, I guess we could do another using my Beck with it's tapered skinny rod, no problem and with Tracks Mink Oil.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 01:45:50 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2020, 03:29:25 AM »
Ok, thanks, Daryl.

I know i'm a weak old man now but getting your load down is tough. I guess what I want to see is how much effort you're putting into it.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2020, 05:30:24 AM »
OK - I understand. Any roughness in the bore will cause problems. My buddy Len shoots a .54 longrifle that Taylor made him & he uses the
red/lt.blue/white/drkblue striped ticking I measure at .023" with a water based lube and a .535" ball and nothing but his rifle's tapered
rod.
But- yes, I will load with mink oil just for the video. Probably best if we do 3 or 4 shots? When I use the mink oil, the pre-cut patches are soaked
in heated oil, then the excess squeezed out.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online MuskratMike

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2020, 06:48:42 AM »
Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline alacran

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2020, 03:35:01 PM »
I was going to say some thing else, but this subject has been covered ad nauseam.  A tight ball patch combination creates greater pressure than a loose patch ball combination.  The more pressure the better the powder will burn, and give you less fowling.
You can get reasonable accuracy with out using a patch at all out to 25 yards. But you will be hard pressed to load the barrel after 2 or 3 shots.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2020, 03:59:00 PM »
OK - I understand. Any roughness in the bore will cause problems. My buddy Len shoots a .54 longrifle that Taylor made him & he uses the
red/lt.blue/white/drkblue striped ticking I measure at .023" with a water based lube and a .535" ball and nothing but his rifle's tapered
rod.
But- yes, I will load with mink oil just for the video. Probably best if we do 3 or 4 shots? When I use the mink oil, the pre-cut patches are soaked
in heated oil, then the excess squeezed out.

A rough barrel could have been a problem. This time i'll be using the gun I just bought from Dennis. It's a Rice barrel. He said it has about 500 shots on it. It should be pretty smooth now.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2020, 07:27:47 PM »
Check the crown first, Pete. Must be smooth to allow easier loading.

Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.

I don't know how to do that, Mike. I already have 3 videos but they will not post here without being published to the internet
first. I no longer have a photobucket account that will allow 3rd party posting, although all three of them are in my photobucket account.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2020, 07:33:47 PM »
Are you making a Youtube? Just post the link here.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2020, 08:08:20 PM »
Check the crown first, Pete. Must be smooth to allow easier loading.

Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.

I don't know how to do that, Mike. I already have 3 videos but they will not post here without being published to the internet
first. I no longer have a photobucket account that will allow 3rd party posting, although all three of them are in my photobucket account.

Daryl,
If you felt compelled to do it you could send me the video and I could upload it to my youtube, unpublished, and post a link here. The only way to see it would be where it was posted here... just an option.

Thlayli

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2020, 09:32:02 PM »
Does a .18 patch with a .49 rb sound reasonable?  Is there a lube you recommend that works especially well with this combination?  I read some of the earlier threads and the tighter fit/less fouling looks like a good way to proceed.

One more question:  After cleaning, is a thin coat of Rem oil or CLP okay on the lock and the bore ok to prevent rust?  I'd wipe it out/off prior to shooting the next time.


Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2020, 09:44:36 PM »
That's a common load and wouldn't be considered a tight load like Daryl uses.

I use TOW Mink Oil for lube all the time. Some guys here only use it for hunting and use a liquid lube for target work. With a liquid lube you never have to swab. No matter what the ball/patch fit.

I believe those products you mentioned are petroleum lubes. I never use petroleum in a muzzleloader. It doesn't play nice with black powder.

Thlayli

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2020, 10:42:18 PM »
Thanks Oldmtnman, I had heard that about petroleum and black powder, but then I'd  see it recommended in other places.  Good thing I have 7 months to get this sorted out.

By liquid lube, I'm guessing alcohol swabs, water or spit?

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2020, 11:10:34 PM »
Thanks Oldmtnman, I had heard that about petroleum and black powder, but then I'd  see it recommended in other places.  Good thing I have 7 months to get this sorted out.

By liquid lube, I'm guessing alcohol swabs, water or spit?

No, i'm thinking of something like this.

https://www.jedediah-starr.com/closeup.asp?cid=183&pid=3213&offset=0

Offline Daryl

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Re: Greetings! Black Powder question
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2020, 05:25:29 AM »
Liquid lubes are usually not useble for hunting, but are specifically used for target work, include spit, water, or some concoctions of
 soap and water.
We, in the North, use Winter Windshield Washer Fluid, with a bit of Neetsfoot Oil included in the mix, maybe an ounce to 10 or 12oz.
The oil is to give some lubrication if the solution evaporates from the patches on a particularly hot day in the summer time. The reason
for the oil in the winter time is because mixing up a gallon at a time and it lasts through the winter and summer.  The need for Winter
Juice (with alcohol) is if it doesn't have alcohol in it, it freezes when we shoot in the winter time. So - it's winter/summer lube that works
all year - for target work only. For the amount we shoot, it's cheaper than using Neetsfoot oil or Mink Oil. As to accuracy - about the same
but, you have to work up a load, starting low and going up in charge as well as trying different patches until you achieve what accuracy
you are happy with.
When switching to a hunting lube, of which I think track's Mink Oil is best, Neetsfoot oil second best, you need to target your rifle to see
where it shoots with THAT lube.  It may need more powder to shoot to the sights & give the same accuracy. This is normal and beneficial
as more powder means higher velocity. Higher velocity means flatter trajectory & longer point blank range.
The really slippery lubes, like Pete posted, will also require their own working up of the load.  They will not shoot the same as a less slippery
oil or grease or something water based, which has the lowest lubricity of all, but cleans the best. Trying is the only way - targets, targets, targets.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V