Author Topic: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained  (Read 1991 times)

Offline tippit

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Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained
« on: June 05, 2020, 07:14:17 PM »
I had this knife for sale...but the more I looked at it something just wasn't right.  The blade seemed too contemporary for a raw bone handle.  So I re-shaped the blade, re-ground the edge, and hand sanded the blade.  It now fits my Bill Wright raw hide sheath perfectly...tippit

Original Bear Bone...


Re-Shaped Bear Bone...


This knife keeps evolving...now Tea Stained.







« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:15:56 PM by tippit »

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2020, 08:33:22 PM »
Ouch, I really liked it’s shape before.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline tippit

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2020, 08:37:49 PM »
Well you can't please everyone :)

Offline Keith Zimmerman

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2020, 11:39:15 PM »
I like the new blade better, actually.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 12:13:30 AM »
Anything with a concave heel looks contemporary, IMHO. I like the slenderer proportions of the new blade, but I have to point out that the s-curved edge which is so popular these days is not some original design, I don't think, but just a modern imitation of what an old knife that has been repeatedly sharpened on a small or round stone without much care for maintaining a straight edge looks like.  The big difference is that modern art knives with those irregular edges maintain crispness everywhere else, particularly at the point, whereas many of not most old knives tend to get their points rounded over at the same time by the same process.

I have no idea how folks with that kind of edge on their knives keep them sharp, but you can't use a big benchstone because the concavity at the heel keeps stone from touching edge at the concave section. It is essentially wasted edge. Last time I restored an old knife the first thing I did was get rid of the concavity....

Not trying to pick on you personally, Tippit, it is just modern convention that I find odd.
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Offline tippit

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 03:34:33 AM »
Elnathan
Okay if you were forging a knife what would it look like. I'm a traditional bow hunter...hunting with a longbow since 1980 only. Recently I've discovered flintlocks and percussion side×sides. So can you send me a drawing of what you would forge for a historic knife?

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 04:01:06 AM »
Tip, I like it better than the before but I agree with Elnathan on the difficulty of sharpening. I could sharpen it on my Chef's Choice 15/20 but on a stone I'd have probs. I do like it very much though. Nice work...

Offline tippit

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 04:15:39 AM »
I like to sharpen on a Gatco system with diamond hones.  It only sharpens the edge and doesn't distort the knife edge.  Takes about a minute to use and I sharpen my knifes that I'm using about once a week.  Not traditional but very quick and easy.  Will sharpen curves.  In the past & present most of my knives are more traditional Hunting or Kitchen knives.  Historic knives are new to me.  I have been using the book...The Knife in Homespun America.  Any advise is welcome...tippit

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 05:14:50 AM »
Tippit, that is a pretty complicated question, actually! I'll try to give a brief answer, as it is my bedtime and I have to get up at four am tomorrow...

The first issue is that during the period most of us are interested in most, the vast bulk of knives were commercially produced in England and France (prior to 1763). That is particularly true of the 18th century - those "rifleman's knives" with antler handles and guards are a modern style without much historical foundation. Later on in the 19th century came the Bowie knife craze, and I suspect that a lot of the big frontier knives are from then (1820-30s) on, if not late 19th/early 20th century - the Great Depression may have produced a lot of cobbled-together knives that would be easy to mistake for something much older.

If you are interested in reproducing trade knives, I'll be happy to share sources and what few good pictures I have.That is a different kettle of fish what what you are doing now, though.

If you are interested in producing the homespun knife, Madison Grant is not a bad place to start, if you bear in mind that his dates are likely wildly inaccurate unless backed up by something more than guess. I don't own a copy and my photocopies from the book are in storage just now, though, so hard to point to specific examples. I'd start by going through the book and picking out the examples that have a known find place or story, which gives them a reasonable chance of being what he says they are (Grant was not a fool, but he was writing a long time ago before a lot of archeology failed to turn up any homespun knives in historic sites, so some of his underlying assumptions were likely wrong).

Second, pay close attention to the shape. Two things that stand out to me about the homespun knives in Grant and others - they almost always have straight or convex heels, and they tend to not have long, sweeping curves but usually slightly awkward lines - handles that stick up above the top of the blade, not much taper before the tip, sometimes banana-shaped blades. Some of the "shapelessness" as Gordon Minnis calls it, may be due to wear, but I think a lot of it is just the way metal tends to squish out when hammered out, particularly when working from bar stock instead of flat stock (the use of files in old knives is likely another modern myth, but that is another discussion). Most of these older knives violate all kinds of modern rules of aesthetics and are pretty rough and ready to boot, which is why you don't see many really good repros - no one will pay good money for a knife that looks like it was banged out in 30 minutes by an amateur!

Might be a couple days before I can come up with a drawing.
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Offline jcmcclure

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 06:17:24 PM »
Tippit, that is a pretty complicated question, actually! I'll try to give a brief answer, as it is my bedtime and I have to get up at four am tomorrow...

The first issue is that during the period most of us are interested in most, the vast bulk of knives were commercially produced in England and France (prior to 1763). That is particularly true of the 18th century - those "rifleman's knives" with antler handles and guards are a modern style without much historical foundation. Later on in the 19th century came the Bowie knife craze, and I suspect that a lot of the big frontier knives are from then (1820-30s) on, if not late 19th/early 20th century - the Great Depression may have produced a lot of cobbled-together knives that would be easy to mistake for something much older.

If you are interested in reproducing trade knives, I'll be happy to share sources and what few good pictures I have.That is a different kettle of fish what what you are doing now, though.

If you are interested in producing the homespun knife, Madison Grant is not a bad place to start, if you bear in mind that his dates are likely wildly inaccurate unless backed up by something more than guess. I don't own a copy and my photocopies from the book are in storage just now, though, so hard to point to specific examples. I'd start by going through the book and picking out the examples that have a known find place or story, which gives them a reasonable chance of being what he says they are (Grant was not a fool, but he was writing a long time ago before a lot of archeology failed to turn up any homespun knives in historic sites, so some of his underlying assumptions were likely wrong).

Second, pay close attention to the shape. Two things that stand out to me about the homespun knives in Grant and others - they almost always have straight or convex heels, and they tend to not have long, sweeping curves but usually slightly awkward lines - handles that stick up above the top of the blade, not much taper before the tip, sometimes banana-shaped blades. Some of the "shapelessness" as Gordon Minnis calls it, may be due to wear, but I think a lot of it is just the way metal tends to squish out when hammered out, particularly when working from bar stock instead of flat stock (the use of files in old knives is likely another modern myth, but that is another discussion). Most of these older knives violate all kinds of modern rules of aesthetics and are pretty rough and ready to boot, which is why you don't see many really good repros - no one will pay good money for a knife that looks like it was banged out in 30 minutes by an amateur!

Might be a couple days before I can come up with a drawing.

I agree with the vast majority of what you have to share. However, the use of files/rasp for knife making did take place. I'm not sure where or with who the theory that files usage for knife blades was vastly uncommon. Before I was a full-time law enforcement officer, I worked as a state historic site manager for an 18th century historic home. I spent a lot of time around artifacts....I've seen a lot of homemade knives from files. I'm sure that all of them were 19th century pieces and they were generally crude, but they were made. I think they were made with more frequency than ppl give credit to. At some point I wish I had started documenting the file/rasp knives that I've examine with some type of antler haft. It total I've seen near to 40 plus.

I enjoy knife making...I make what I make and if ppl are interested they are welcome to them and if not that's ok too. I generally do not share my work on here anymore because I feel it has a better place on the CLA's Facebook page because my work is more contemporary.

Just a thought in file knives.

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 07:23:15 AM »
I would be hugely interested in resources my self.

Offline tippit

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2020, 06:13:20 PM »
Just decided it looked too plain & shinny...tea stained.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 06:44:57 PM by tippit »

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2020, 12:21:22 AM »
Ok, source material for American Primitive knives, excluding trade knives, bowies, and daggers... First of all, the caveat: I'm not any kind of expert on the subject - I don't even collect old knives - just a guy that read a couple books on the subject trying to figure out if an 18th century blacksmith knife ever existed and if so what it could look like. My primary interests is 1) making stuff that is authentic as possible and 2) mostly the 18th century, not 19th. My take on what are useful resources is going inevitable reflect that focus, particularly since a lot of my stuff is in storage and I have to go on memory just now.

There ain't much in terms of analytical material, mostly because datable examples are so rare. The best book on the subject is Gordon Minnis's American Primitive Knives, 1770-1870. It is the best resource out there not because it has the most pictures, but because Gordon is fairly selective and includes things like construction details, provenance if any, and at least some explanation as why he assigns it a certain date and how confident he is. Current scholarship suggests that he is wrong in his belief that commercial knives were rare or expensive in the early years of this country, but it gives at least a starting point to someone trying to get a handle on what might have been produced when. It also includes the Fort Ticonderoga knife, which is a solidly datable (1778) example of an 18th century homespun knife. Unfortunately it also is out of print and quite expensive when available (I don't own a copy, myself) but is available via Interlibrary loan for those of you who have library systems that still cater to those that like to read books...

The rest of the books I am familiar with are primarily picture resources, aka data dumps, from which you must sort the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, depending on what period you are interested in.

If you can't get ahold of American Primitive Knives, and even if you can, Johnson's Accouterments III has an abbreviated (two pages) essay by Minnis followed by many, many photographs from Minnis' collection, including a bunch that didn't make it into his own book. Minnis, wisely, does not attempt to date any of these knives and he doesn't give as much detail as he does in his other book, but as a source of inspiration/eye-candy/study-material-for-shape-etc it is a great resource, particularly since it is still readily available at a reasonable price from ToTW and no doubt others.

Madison Grant's The Knife in Homespun America is pretty familiar to most folks and is the first book I read on the subject, and he has a lot of really interesting old knives. Unfortunately he tends towards "atmosphere" instead of analysis and his dates should be taken with a huge grain of salt. The best way to use it, I think, is to start by looking through it, reading the captions, and figuring out which knives have a known history or distinctive features that mark it as belonging to particular period, and use those handful of examples as starting points.

George Neumann's Swords and Blades of the American Revolution also has a number of old knives, but while I love that book in general I do not love the homespun knife section - he doesn't have any firmly datable examples and he doesn't really try to give them useful dates, opting instead of for a range that could be as late as the mid-19th century (and even there may be a bit too optimistic!) Some cool examples  - the example made from an old scythe handle is great - but not a great place to begin. It is worth getting for 1) swords 2) bayonets 3) axes 4) polearms and 5) dirks, folding knives, and daggers - everything except the blades under discussion, as a matter of fact! Only thing it ignores is trade knives with only one example....

I was asked via PM specifically about Appalachian knives. Since that hasn't been an area of interest I can't say much about them, except that there is only one - a bowie-type - in Guns and Gunmaking Tools of Southern Appalachia - and that there are a number of ranging from little utility/patch knives to big fighting knives in Webb's Sketches of Hunting Pouches, Powder Horns and Accoutrements of Southern Appalachia. Basically a regionally-specific, hand-drawn version of Madison Grant - I don't take his dates as gospel but the pictures are nice to look at.

The underlying problem with all these books is that plain ole' hand-made, one-off, homespun knives are simultaneously are all different and yet don't lend themselves to falling into patterns that would allow us to date them by shape or decoration like we do rifles. Apart from a handful that are dated, dug up from archeological contests that prove a firm date (like the one dug up from a fortification made in 1778) or have other provenance, there just isn't much to work on.

So, you may ask, how does one sort out which knives are likely later than 1860, and which are likely earlier? One place to start would be to look at commercially produced knives, on the assumption that anyone making a "one-off" would have been influenced by the knives around him. Remember that they didn't have the internet back then, and prior to Bowie knives were mostly tools, not fashion statements. Blade shape is one obvious area - no one was manufacturing clip points in the 18th century, so a knife with that feature probably dates post-1820 (I think). A stick tang could have been made at any time, but a scale handle with 4-6 pins or more is post 1800, since that was a style that came in the 19th century and fell out of favor by the Civil War (I think -  take my dates with a grain of salt too!). 18th century trade knives used iron pins, fairly thin ones, so anything with brass pins is probably later I think and if it has cutler's rivets it is definitely later - I'm unsure of the exact dates but I'm pretty sure that cutler's rivets post-date the Fur Trade. OTOH, pistol grips show up on 18th century table knives, including the cartouche knives traded by the British to the Indians 1780-1800, so I'm inclined to to date any knife with a pistol-grip handle fairly early absent something pointing a later date (like rivets....)

Once you have a couple examples that can be dated by provenance or features to the area you are interested in, you can look at commonalities. Since I am interested in 18th century knives, I note in particular that Grant has a couple of middling-sized knives with a reasonable chance, IMO, of being period - the one found on the Paoli Massacre Site and the pictured next to it with a pewter lion-headed handle. Both have upswept blades with fairly blunt spear-point tips - what I call a banana-shaped blade - and a rat-tail tang. The Fort Ti blade pictured in Minnis' book also has a banana blade, albeit much more subtle (all the repros I've seen miss that feature and just give it an upswept tip) and a rat-tail tang. No handle survived, but Minnis says that lab analysis indicated that it was bone or antler. I then note another knife from Minnis with a pistol-grip handle (reminiscent of a 18th or early 19th century eating knife), a scalper-type blade, and a stick tang, and recall that Don Troiani has a knife with a sheath dated 1759 and it has a stick tang, antler crown handle, and a curved blade (mostly hidden in the illustration, alas)....So I conclude that a curved blade, either banana-shaped or scalper-like, and stick tangs are plausible forms for an 18th century knife, with either antler or wood handles. No pewter bolsters, and only one has an iron ferrule while another has, IIRC, wire wound around it's handle as a ferrule (something I've seen on another bonified 18th century knife, a French butcher knife with its handle carved into an effigy by its Native purchaser).

I think that there is a lot of room for creativity when make reproductions. The pitfall I think most people fall into is making knives that too nice and too influenced by modern art knives in shape. Looking at old knives a lot will help tame this, I think - even the ones that aren't datable to the muzzleloading period are useful for this, because they show how someone uninfluenced by the modern knife scene shaped knives and help us get into the heads of an earlier generation, if you understand what I mean. If folks are having trouble figuring out the differences try drawing a couple knives to scale freehand - drawing forces you to look at lines and proportions differently than you might otherwise. My discovery that the Fort Ti knife had a slight banana/drop point shape instead of a simple upswept tip came about while I was trying to make a scale "blueprint."

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Offline jcmcclure

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2020, 12:53:59 AM »
https://dokumen.tips/documents/food-food-preparation-utility-clasp-knives.html

This link had a few documented 18th century knives with antler haft's.




Offline Elnathan

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped Blade
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2020, 01:00:57 AM »

I agree with the vast majority of what you have to share. However, the use of files/rasp for knife making did take place. I'm not sure where or with who the theory that files usage for knife blades was vastly uncommon. Before I was a full-time law enforcement officer, I worked as a state historic site manager for an 18th century historic home. I spent a lot of time around artifacts....I've seen a lot of homemade knives from files. I'm sure that all of them were 19th century pieces and they were generally crude, but they were made. I think they were made with more frequency than ppl give credit to. At some point I wish I had started documenting the file/rasp knives that I've examine with some type of antler haft. It total I've seen near to 40 plus.

I was mostly thinking of the 18th century when I wrote that, and of this article: http://www.knife-expert.com/filestory.htm

I have no doubt that there are a lot of old knives made from files, I just doubt that they predate the introduction of modern metallurgy and machine-made files. In other words, I suspect that a lot of them date from the later 19th century or early 20th. IIRC, Marjorie Rawlings mentions a knife made from an old file with a corn-cob handle in The Yearling, published in 1938, and I suspect that she was describing something she had seen - the story is set in the 1870s so it might have dated that early.

I use files, not grinders, for shaping metal whenever I can, as I feel a lot more confident with them than I do a grinder  or sander. the last blade I made, my dagger, filed the whole thing out of steel by hand. When I was polishing it prior to heat treating, I used sandpaper wrapped around a file, and I noticed that in the initial stages of polishing with very coarse paper, the majority of the filed surface disappeared quite quickly, leaving behind a series of parallel scratches that could look very much like the remnants of file teeth if that was what one was expecting to see. I, of course, carried on and made them all disappear, but it took a lot more time and elbow grease and I suspect that a lot of those "remnants of file teeth" found on old knives are the marks from filing that were never polished out completely rather than the remnants of file teeth themselves.

Addendum: It occurs to me that any home-spun knives dating to the 18th century would be made probably not out of general poverty but because of disrupted supply lines and the need for a knife that could have overridden ordinary economic concerns  (like, oh, a revolution and a war against your primary trade partner - one of the accounts of the Revolution in the South Carolina backcountry mentions a scarcity of swords and butcher knives, which prompted the militia to forge saw blades into swords - no homespun knives mentioned but it is suggestive, no?). Given that, perhaps the economic arguments against file-knives aren't as strong as I thought.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 01:12:32 AM by Elnathan »
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Offline tippit

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Re: Bear Bone Handled Knife...Re-Shaped & Now Tea Stained
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2020, 05:16:14 AM »
Elnathan & jcmcclure,
Thank you both for this information. I'm sure a farmer or farrier with a coal forge pot had the ability to hammer out some very decent knives from scrap metal or an old worn out file.  It's actually very easy to forge to near finish with just a hammer which would then require very little hand filing of the blade edge.  Thanks again...tippit