Unusual Bill large barrel

[Rwnblack]

Hi I picked up some barrels today including this heavy fast twist 45 cal Bill Large barrel.  It almost looks like it should have a false muzzle but I didn’t find one for it.  The weird thing is the two slots almost like flutes cut on the corners of the the flats by his name.  Looks like 1/2 dovetail for a sight.  The four J’s are on the muzzle instead of by his name on the side.  Iit is about 1 1/16x 30”, very fast twist.   Any ideas of what this is?

[Bob Roller]

What caliber and how many lands and grooves?There is something about this one
that isn't right and I am thinking it may be another make of barrel.

Bob Roller

[Rwnblack]

I took some measurements this morning. 

The barrel is 30” x 1 1/16 across, no taper.  8 lands and groves.  The are deep.  The dimensions are 0.446 -0.473 lands and groves, respectively.  The cuts on the left side angle Is 1/2” dovetail 4 1/2” long, threaded 3/4” for the breech plug, 3 dovetails on the bottom , two on top. 

I purchased this from my Friends estate, he bought several barrels from Bill over the years and built rifles for people.  He had a Stroke 24 years ago and never really was able to finish his projects after that.  This is one of 3 Large barrels, the others are a 36 cal 13/16” x36 barrel and a very light and long fowler barrel.  It is 50 cal and only 7/8 dia, part octagon to round with wedding band.  The last two are used.  Stocks were broken and he was going to build new ones but never got to it.  I picked up other barrels as well.  Including two barrels with false muzzles, Two Colerain barrels one of which is a 58 cal rifled C weight 44” fowler barrel!  There is a 36 cal rifle with a very light Colerain swamped barrel he didn’t finish.  I plan on finishing it but engrave his name on top since to honour him and it will have been 95% by him.  We have different tastes in style but I will refrain from changing it.

[little joe]

I used a lot of Bill,s bbls. and he would  do a lot of things different. Possibly he ran out of steel in the final maching process and was able to wiggle by this way.

[Daryl]

The muzzle is turned for a guide bullet starter as-were Remington commercial barrels, back in the 1840's and 50's.

[Bob Roller]

Bill Large made a lot of 1 and 1/16th barrels and now they seem to be an orphan
among barrel makers.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

The barrel on Taylor's first S. Hawken rifle, had an inch and sixteenth barrel along with a 60" twist, IIRC.
The stock, Eastern Maple(I think), also had 10 vertical lines to the inch. An amazing piece of wood.

[Bob Roller]

The very deep grooves in this barrel to me indicates late production when at times Bill wasn't
paying close attention to the rifling machine and it made splines.Toward the end of his days
of making barrels Bill's interest seemed to be lagging and maybe he knew the sand was almost
thru the hour glass.I am  in the same frame of mind about lock making and hope a maker of
quality CAPLOCKS will appear to fill the gap as was done with flintlocks.I am NOT concerned
about the "hour glass" and think worrying about absolute certainties is foolish.

Bob Roller

[heinz]

I think the "heavy fast twist 45" is the clue here.  That is set up to take a side mount for a Redfield peep site I believe.  I think someone was planning a cross sticks rifle for buffalo matches.  Did your friend attend the NMLRA matches at Friendship?  This would have made a dandy under hammer gun fand light bench shooting or X stick matches.

PS, when Bob Roller speaks of careless he means by his and Bill Large's standards.  ( like a .002 off)

[Scota4570]

Sounds like possibly a slug gun barrel.  A real false muzzle would be helpful.  The groves are only 0.0135" deep, not very deep.  With a fast twist that screams paper patch or greased slugs to me.  The land and grooves measurements make for a goofie ML  bullet size.  Just buying a 45-70 blank would have accomplished the same thing at the time it was originally made.  450-577 uses these dimension but why would anyone make a new barrel for that? 

I have used barrels intended for 45-70 as ML barrels.  They shoot patched balls very well.  Despite the fast twist I bet it will shoot patched balls very well. 

[Daryl]

I have reread this thread and yet do not know the rate of the rifling twist. Simply saying "Fast" is meaningless.
Most .577/450's had bores of .450 or so and If of even groove, were up to . 464" groove to groove. If tapered groove depth, they ran .464" to .468" at the breech to about .004 less at the muzzle, more times than not. That meant soft paperpatched bullets were needed, and likely in this bl. as well IF it has a fast rate of twist.

[Rwnblack]

I checked the twist and it is 1 in 22”.  It looks like it is relegated to being a slug gun.  I think I will sell it and stick to my round ball guns and the one long range ML I have.  It is Rigby ML rifle I built with a 45 cal 1in 18 twist.  My next build may have to be a 44” barrel fowler.  I am leaning towards the French  Tulle Fusil de chase as I am in Canada and it would be historically correct up here.  First I have to decide if I can live with that sloped buttstock shape.  Early American fowlers would have made there way here too, just not as commonly but they are very attractive.

[Hungry Horse]

 A dear departed friend purchased a very similar barrel from Bill Large in the seventies. The only real differences was the lack of fancy fluting at the breech, and the staple at the muzzle end of the barrel. The project was a to be a half stocked Slotterbeck telescopic rifle replica. But as far as I’ve been able to investigate, the gun never got built, and the location of the barrel is unknown. But, this barrel is very similar right down to the turned muzzle for the bullet starter.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

I checked the twist and it is 1 in 22”.

TKS - yes indeedy. A slug barrel with exceptionally deep rifling for that purpose.  I once bought a .45 (.448") RB barrel from Less Bauska in 1975.
The barrel had .028" deep rifling. Got it for a song as: "forgot it on the rifling bench, just kept getting deeper and deeper. - you can have it if ya
wannit!" I did - good shooting barrel, too, but with a 48" twist, not .22". I still have a section of that bl.

[Rwnblack]

I found the breech plug for the Large Barrel.  I decided to post it on our Canadian Gun site, Canadian Gun Nutz, will see if there are any takers.

Here are pics with the breech plug installed.

[Daryl]

Appears "someone" put that milled dovetail in it for sort of side angle-mounting a scope to clear the hammer.
The dovetails appear to be about the right size, for a pair of the front Sako rings, or maybe the front BRNO rings.