Author Topic: Rit Dye  (Read 4013 times)

Offline Stophel

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2020, 03:23:53 AM »
I wouldn't even think of using Rit dye... but then, I wouldn't think of using leather dye either (I don't even like that stuff on leather).

If you can't get nitric acid or prepared aqua fortis stain, the next best thing is "vinegaroon".  Iron "dissolved" in apple cider vinegar.  Old nails and vinegar are probably not restricted or hard to get anywhere in the world.  It takes a while, and I have to say, I have had varying results... from producing a color ALMOST as good as aqua fortis to virtually no effect whatsoever.  It's cheap and easy to make up several batches, and see what you get.  Keep the jars of solution that work, toss out the ones that don't.   ;)
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Offline Long John

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2020, 04:24:22 PM »
Friends,

As an old former college chemistry major I question the propriety of using cloth fabric dyes for staining a wooden rifle stock.  All coloring agents are NOT the same and their chemistry determines their behavior. 

The acid-iron stains such as "aqua fortis" and vinegaroon rely on a solution of iron ions and acid ions in water.  Since wood is typically around 8% water, by weight, a water-based stain allows the iron ions to flow into the wood where they bind to the individual cellulose fiber molecules.  Adding a little dish detergent or isopropanol will reduce the surface tension of the water-based stain solution and facilitate deeper penetration into the wood.  When the stain dries vinegaroon merely allows the acetic acid to evaporate and aqua-fortis stain requires heat of about 300F to vaporize the nitric acid.  This leaves the iron ions in the wood.  They combine with the oxygen in the air and form iron oxides.  The iron oxides impart the reddish-brown to blackish brown color to the wood, based upon the relative concentrations of ferric oxide versus ferrosoferric oxide.  These are stable inorganic compounds that will remain as is for centuries.

Most of the commercial stains we can bye are comprised of iron oxides ground-up into a fine powder and suspended in a liquid vehicle.  The finer the oxides are ground-up the better the stain but also the more expensive the stain.  When the stain is applied the ground-up solid oxide particles stick to the surface of the wood fibers.  But since the iron particles are suspended solids in a liquid vehicle they cannot penetrate as deeply as and individual ion - they are approximately 10,000 times larger in diameter.  The end result is a stock with the right color but the appearance might not have the depth of color and the light reflection characteristics, called chatoyance by artists, of an acid-iron stain.  But, some think they are easier to use.  Sometimes easier is better, sometimes not.

Then we get to dyes.  Dyes are organic compounds that use the molecular structure to reflect selected colors if incident light and absorb the rest.  Since dyes are a mixture of dissolved molecules in a solvent vehicle they have a similar ability to penetrate more deeply into the wood, like an acid-iron stain, BUT the dye molecules are subject to chemical reactions over time, temperature, humidity variations.  Consequently, dyes tend to fade.  Compare a new pair of blue jeans with a pair you have been wearing for a year.  If your objective is to produce a product that has a short usable life-time then dyes are a suitable coloring strategy.  If your objective is to have a product that will serve for many years it might not be the best.  Dyes are easy to use.  But is easier better?

Best Regards,

JMC

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2020, 01:16:57 AM »
Where could someone get some scrap pieces of curly maple rifle stock to test different types of finish on?  I went to a couple of local wood stores and couldn't find any good curly sugar or red maple.
Fly Navy,
I have buckets full of maple cutoffs from all the barrel inletting I do.  I can fill up a medium or large flatrate box and would gladly ship it to you for the price of the postage.
David
Some people heat there shops in Iowa with that stuff.
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2020, 01:31:05 AM »
Don't use RIT.  Firstly because it is not very lightfast.  Secondly, because it is loaded with salt.  I stained an old Italian built Mississippi rifle with it years ago, and the salt in the stain festered and corroded at the brass and iron parts in the stock.  Maybe I should have done a better job rinsing it off.  My favorite stains are natural ones, boiled walnut hulls, else alcohol based dyes like Laurel Mountain.

That salt thing is seen in a bunch of organic dyes for use on textiles or paper.  When they make the original batch of dye is is often a lot stronger in color that was is sold as their standard color.  So they cut it with salt to give the same color from one lot of dye to the next.  I put several years in a plant that made these dyes and that salt addition to a specified dye strength was part of my QC work on the dye batches.

Offline Not English

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 05:00:50 AM »
JMC, Thanks for the really informative post. It mirrors my experiences, but with an explanation for them.

Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2020, 03:38:20 PM »
If you like to experiment, you might consider TransTint liquid concentrated wood dye. Can be used in either water or alcohol, and available in a host of colors. They also have a color wheel based on their products and the comparable oil color, like burnt umber is brown mahogany.

https://homesteadfinishingproducts.com/transtint-liquid-dyes/

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Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2020, 07:08:21 PM »
JMC,
Thanks for that info.
I’ve also experienced first hand the issue with leather dye (used on leather) fading significantly when exposed to light.

Jeff
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Offline david58

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Re: Rit Dye
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2020, 06:04:34 AM »
Late to the party, but I just stained a walnut stock with vinegaroon today, then followed by MinWax Cherry.  Was working to get a DARK stock, and succeeded.  Thought the cherry would impart a little red tint, didn't, but just took it a bit darker.  Really like the result, and I like the permanence of a chemical reaction rather than a dye.