Author Topic: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED  (Read 12565 times)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« on: June 16, 2020, 06:44:30 PM »
Hi,
I mentioned in another thread that I would do one on working over an L&R Queen Anne lock.  I was asked to do one by a left-handed friend and accepted the job mainly because lefties have few choices.  If they want a round-faced lock there is only one readily available choice, the L&R Queen Anne.  So to help them and others make do, I am posting this thread.  I don' imply that you need to do everything I do to have a decent lock but any of the tasks will help.  I am not going to show finishing the exterior just what is necessary to improve function.

The QA lock purports to be from the 1750s period, which is actually long after Queen Anne who died in 1714.



Locks from that era usually had long sear springs such that the hole for the spring was always hidden behind the flint cock.  It wasn't until the 1770s that short springs became common and 2 screws shown behind the flint cock.  The other problem is that the lock is not up to the quality of similar locks made during that period but it can be improved a lot.  The photo below shows QA lock along with an original lock from the 1760s showing the long sear spring.       





how to upload pictures on the internet

I also show the QA lock and a Chambers round-faced English lock.  The Chambers lock is very close to the original. 






The QA lock has improved over the years.  The photos below show a new one and one I purchased 4 or 5 years ago.  Note the sear is longer and larger on the new lock.  That is a big improvement. 






The bridle was simplified and made a bit more crudely and the mainspring was changed from a cast spring to their new flat forged spring.  The new spring is an improvement in one sense because it is oriented such that the lower leaf is straight when the lock is at full cock.  I show that feature below along with the Chambers lock.  The lower leaf on the old spring bent upward at the middle.




Another improvement L&R made was the geometry of the sear and tumbler such that the sear bar always returns to the same position on the lock plate when at rest, half, and full cock.





The older version moved around.  Below is an example of poor geometry with respect to the sear.  Note how much the sear bar moves and is in 3 different positions at rest, half, and full cock.  That makes it very hard to install a simple trigger such that it maintains contact with the sear regardless of cock position.





So the new L&R QA lock has some solid raw material with which to work.  Now for the issues.  The frizzen has a "waterproof" lug on the bottom of the pan cover.  Ostensibly, this is supposed to seal the pan.  In the photo below, where does the priming powder go?  The lug takes up most of the space and is going to pack the powder down.



It also may be preventing the frizzen from fully closing on the pan.  Look at the gap around the pan.



That lug has to go, and in its place the frizzen will be better fit to the pan and a notch will be filed into the bottom of the lid at the vent hole.  That prevents packing powder down near the vent and loose powder burns faster.  In addition, note in the photo above that the bolster on the lock plate is not ground parallel to the plate.  It is toed in on the bottom. That has to be carefully filed flat and parallel with the plate.

The flintcock is not seated properly on the tumbler.  It appears that no fitting was done and it was just carelessly pushed on to the tumbler.  It does not butt against the shoulder on the tumbler post.



The internal parts are all rough and no polishing or precise fitting seems to have been done.  When diassembling an L&R lock, make sure to note the orientation of the fly detent and don't lose it.  I always have a small supply of replacements on hand just in case.





Finally, the lock plate is not ground flat inside.  The grinding is careless and not even.  That will be corrected. 



The first job is to pop the frizzen, bridle, tumbler, sear, mainspring, and frizzen spring into my heat treating oven and heated to bright red, then cooled slowly.  That is to anneal them, which makes reworking and polishing much quicker.  You don't have to do that and unless you are adept at heat treating, I suggest you avoid annealing any hardened and tempered parts.  You can accomplish many of the tasks with grinding and polishing stones and diamond files but it will go more slowly.  I am going a demonstrate an extensive work over but you certainly don't need to do it all to have a pretty good lock.  Just do what you are comfortable with.  More to come.

dave   

« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 01:48:43 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5327
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 08:36:11 PM »
Great information, thanks for posting.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 09:15:38 PM »
Dave,
thanks for posting this!  I am currently working on a lefty L&R Durs Egg lock, I shall be watching your progress closely.

Right now, I'm not tuning yet, just doing some re-shaping and initial polishing.  Maybe I'm going in the wrong order, but anyway....

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12630
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 11:56:35 PM »
Dave:  this is such a worthy tutorial...many thanks for going to the trouble.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13411
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2020, 12:49:40 AM »
I have to ask the obvious. Why would you use a lock you are so unhappy with? Doesn't seem cost effective to me.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2020, 01:04:00 AM »
Hi Mike,
That is not an obvious question because I am not using it and don't plan too.  I am doing this for a friend who is left handed.  I explained that at the beginning.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2020, 01:18:21 AM »
Hi,
While parts were annealing I worked on flattening the inside of the lock plate.  I use a large single cut file for this. It spans the plate in all dimensions so I can keep things flat.



A swipe of the file reveals all the depressions and uneven grinding.



After filing with the single cut file, I use a finer file, and then stones and paraffin oil.  After flattening the surface, you can see the deep depression where the L&R logo is stamped.  I had to remove so much metal that the assembler's (?) stamp "A" was filed away and yet that big depression still exists. I decide to stop because the low spot is not in a critical location and to remove it would seriously thin the plate.  The grinding must have been done with a belt sander without much care.



Next, I thought I'd get rid of the sear spring hole to make the lock historically correct. Certainly, this is not essential but I know how to do it and why not?  First, I lightly counter sink the screw hole on the outside.



Then I screw the sear screw in a few threads from the outside and cut it off flush with a jeweler's saw.  Now I have a steel plug in the hole and the shorter screw that I will need to attach the sear spring. Kind of neat don't you think?





Next, I weld a blob of steel on top of the hole and file it flush.  The hole is gone.





On the inside, I thread a 6-40 bottoming tap to freshen the remaining threads and clean up the end of the sear screw. Then I freshen its threads with a die and attach the spring. 



After the frizzen cooled, I ground off the lug and carefully flattened the bottom of the pan cover. I use a file that spans the dimensions of the pan cover to keep the surface even and flat and I removed just enough metal to eliminate the lug and no more.  The first step in fitting a frizzen to a pan is to flatten and even up the rim of the pan.  As you can see, that space is a mess on the QA lock. Clearly, there was absolutely no effort to fit the frizzen to the pan.



A few swipes of a flat file reveal the uneven surface. You cannot fit a frizzen without first flattening the top of the pan. You then go from there.



After removing the lug and flattening the bottom of the pan cover and top of the pan, this is what you get on this lock. Now you know why the lug is on the bottom of the frizzen.



More to come.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2020, 01:48:05 AM »
I really like some of the L&R designs.  I'm not often crazy about the execution.  The "Queen Anne" can make a dandy lock if you use Siler internal parts.  They fit and work quite well.  The square hole on the cock is the right angle and everything.  Just start with as-cast parts, and go to town.  A pretty easy "kit bash" project.

I did this one almost fifteen years ago.  I drilled a blind hole for the sear spring screw.  I might do the lock (and the rest of the gun) a little differently if I did it today.



When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 03:58:47 AM »
Hi,
Did a little more work on the lock today.  I go back and forth working on different projects.  When I get tired of wood work, I do metal work, when I get tired of metal work, I do wood work, and when I am tired of both, I play with my dog.  When you try to improve or tune a lock, you may find one task makes changes that lead to another.  A lock is an interdependent system and a change in one thing can affect a bunch of things.  When a lock is assembled before any of the cast parts are cleaned up and bearing surfaces well fitted, such as with this lock, that interdependence can make tuning a real pain in the neck.   For example, after filing off casting seams and the rough surface on the sides of the frizzen toe, the frizzen fits loosely between the pan and bridle.  Another example is when I clean off the casting marks on the bearing surfaces of the tumbler and bridle, the fit of the tumbler between the plate and bridle will be sloppy. I will have to file a little off the boss of bridle so it fits closer to the plate to correct that.  Then I will have to thin the sear as well.  If that kind of stuff was done before assembly there would be no problems.   I'll resolve it.  It is just another bunch of tasks to be done and is why the owner of the lock will be paying my entire property tax bill this year in payment; thus, his lock cost $170 plus $4000 in labor.  Just kidding (sort of).

Fitting a frizzen to a pan on an assembled lock is a lot of work.  It is almost easier to fit and drill a new frizzen.  Regardless, I am working with what I have and it will turn out very well.  This job is much easier if the frizzen is annealed.  You can do it with hardened parts but you need a grinder, diamond files, and stones.  I ground and filed off the lug on the bottom of the pan cover.  I also filed off the casting marks on the top of the pan.  The first task is to flatten the edges of the pan.  A large flat file that spans the pan is useful to keep things even.  However, you will find that in this case, the back edge of the pan along the fence and the corresponding bottom of the frizzen need to be filed most. The frizzen is invariably going to have to angle more to the rear.  File from both the frizzen and pan until the fit looks pretty good but don't obsess with the fit yet.  Use inletting black to identify high spots.  As you can see in the photos, I've filed off the lug, flattened the bottom of the pan cover and filed a notch for the vent hole.  I've also filed the top of the pan.  That bit of work improved the fit immensely.







I stop here until I fit the frizzen spring.  I've annealed that spring so I can work on it.  What often frustrates folks when fitting a frizzen to a pan is when they install the spring, their tight fit is ruined because the spring pushes the frizzen up.  It is something that drives folks crazy. My solution is do not obsess with filing the pan and frizzen until you have installed the spring. And even after, don't for a minute think a tight fit is waterproof. Water vapor on a  humid day will wet your priming regardless. Just get the fit to look close and don't worry if you see a tiny sliver of daylight between the pan and frizzen.
Before final fitting the frizzen to the pan, I wanted to fit, harden and temper the frizzen spring.  First, I filed a facet on the toe of the frizzen so that it snaps over at a lower angle the pan and as a result, faster.



One problem is that the frizzen spring on this lock does not put pressure on the frizzen when fully open.  The frizzen wobbles and would be prone to kick back.






The problem is that the spring is wider than the space between the plate and pan bridle stopping the spring and preventing it from putting pressure on the frizzen when open.  The solution was to file a notch near the upper end of the frizzen spring such that it slips between the bridle and plate.  Many original guns show this.






That solved the problem and I will eventually file a soft rounded shoulder on the notch.  Next up is to clean up the spring, harden and temper it, and the final fit the frizzen to the pan.   

dave

"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13411
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 05:14:26 PM »
Entirely too much work and still have a left handed lock when you're done.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 05:48:21 PM »
Hi Mike,
LOL!!!  You are so right.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12630
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 06:43:52 PM »
I agree that it is a lot of work - careful, precise and even tedious.  But there is a satisfaction that comes from having accomplished this that cannot be easily explained and which is most valuable.  I am guilty of wasting time in this manner without regret.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4309
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 08:16:53 PM »
I agree that it is a lot of work - careful, precise and even tedious.  But there is a satisfaction that comes from having accomplished this that cannot be easily explained and which is most valuable.  I am guilty of wasting time in this manner without regret.
Ditto!

Offline Curt Lyles

  • Curt’s Blacksmith Shop
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
    • Curt's Blacksmith Shop
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2020, 09:07:39 PM »
Yeah I guess it is cheaper than  a college education

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2020, 09:10:56 PM »
Yeah I guess it is cheaper than  a college education

Hi Curt,
I don't know about that.  Wait until I am finished.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2020, 09:17:41 PM »
Sure is nice to be young.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 01:21:59 AM »
If you all think this lock is a lot of work, you'd all really balk at the thought of doing what I do with EVERY lock....   :P
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline scottmc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 02:46:59 AM »
Dave, I'm a lefty if u remember from Dixons and I commend you for going the extra mile for your friend.  Us lefties are locked in to a few choices so if you are able to make it better, it's worth the extra cost.  I'm paying almost $500 for a left hand golcher flintlock to be built but it's worth it to me to get as close to HC as possible.
Remember Paoli!

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 02:50:13 AM »
Hi Folks,
Thanks for looking but to some I ask, if Chambers can correct 90% of the issues I am dealing with for only $20-30 more, what the heck is wrong with L&R? 

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2020, 03:25:02 AM »
I ask myself that same question 30 years ago. :o

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6957
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 03:56:24 AM »
Hi,
 I cleaned up the spring and heated the bend bright red with a MAPP gas torch.  When hot, I opened spread the main bend, then heated the entire spring red hot and quenched in canola oil.  Then I cleaned off the oil and tempered it in my oven at 750 degrees for 30 minutes.  After fitting it, I installed the frizzen and continued trying to make it fit the pan well.  It took a lot of time but I managed pretty well.  In addition, my change to the toe gave the frizzen a nice crisp snap open instead of the sandpaper grind it had before.







More issues to correct.  Look at the rough raised casting surface on the lock plate where the frizzen goes.  If you smooth that up, the frizzen will have a sloppy fit.  If you just brown your sand blasted locks thinking wrongly that it is authentic looking, that kind of blemish might be hidden, but if you finish the lock in any kind of historically correct manner, it will stick out like a sore thumb.  That should have been removed before assembly.  Anyway, I'll get it fixed.  Also the poor fit of the flint cock is largely due to casting flashing within the square hole.  Obviously, no attempt at all was made to fit the parts correctly.  This is worse that I've seen on some India-made locks. 
   







dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2020, 04:27:33 AM »
Very nice tutorial Dave.  I have often  said L&R makes a good lock but they always need some tuning and the internals need to be re tempered.  A like the lines of the Manton lock and the Durs Egg.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13411
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2020, 03:04:20 PM »
Hi Folks,
Thanks for looking but to some I ask, if Chambers can correct 90% of the issues I am dealing with for only $20-30 more, what the heck is wrong with L&R? 

dave
That's why I don't use L&R locks. Everything out there is better right out of the box. I'm willing to pay for anything I don't have to fiddle with. Time is money.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4558
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2020, 03:33:32 PM »
As far as starting from scratch rather than re-working an assembled lock; has anyone here ever had the experience of assembling a J. Clark lock kit ?  ;D   You definitely had to know what you were doing to get it together and working as it should. !   Great lock , though.

Offline Rolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1752
  • There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2020, 03:47:48 PM »
Hi Folks,
Thanks for looking but to some I ask, if Chambers can correct 90% of the issues I am dealing with for only $20-30 more, what the heck is wrong with L&R? 

dave
That's why I don't use L&R locks. Everything out there is better right out of the box. I'm willing to pay for anything I don't have to fiddle with. Time is money.

Easy to say Mike. If you are left handed, have to work with what you can get.

Best regards
Rolf