Author Topic: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED  (Read 10719 times)

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2020, 04:28:34 PM »
My first L&R lock was my last L&R lock. I sent it back twice, when I got it back from the second fix they had corrected one problem but created another to make the lock inoperable. I didn't send it back, I corrected the problem they created myself. I never could understand how some one who made their living making locks could do such shoddy work when doing it right wouldn't have taken but a few minutes more.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2020, 04:41:04 PM »
I've often wondered how companies that do work like this can stay in business.   I find it astounding.  The only answer I can come up with is that the average consumer doesn't understand good versus bad with these locks.  This isn't intended to bash anyone.  I just compare what we put into locks and then look at this and it blows my mind.

Jim

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2020, 04:42:58 PM »
I agree that it is a lot of work - careful, precise and even tedious.  But there is a satisfaction that comes from having accomplished this that cannot be easily explained and which is most valuable.  I am guilty of wasting time in this manner without regret.
I never tried to rework one of their "finished" locks but have no real problems with
the external parts.
Bob Roller

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2020, 04:46:28 PM »
As far as starting from scratch rather than re-working an assembled lock; has anyone here ever had the experience of assembling a J. Clark lock kit ?  ;D   You definitely had to know what you were doing to get it together and working as it should. !   Great lock , though.

This is the Durs Egg look-alike? I have a set of castings. No fly as I got it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2020, 05:42:27 PM »
My first L&R lock was my last L&R lock. I sent it back twice, when I got it back from the second fix they had corrected one problem but created another to make the lock inoperable. I didn't send it back, I corrected the problem they created myself. I never could understand how some one who made their living making locks could do such shoddy work when doing it right wouldn't have taken but a few minutes more.

These locks are mass market items and were intended for the hobby builder that still has
very limited means to work with.That market will never go away .
In the early 1970's the late Tom Dawson showed the owners of L&R several fine old locks and
some I had made and the only thing that came from that meeting was that production expedients
took preference over every thing else.As I said earlier,I have had no problems with the external parts
but would not even think about trying to remake a completed lock with an indifferent set of parts.
I quit locks last August and have no current plans to restart and will content myself with a few triggers
every month.One thing that I think is lacking right now is an upgraded caplock for those who prefer
them.The caplocks I see that are now being made are substandard in my opinion but then they do
not have to have a sophisticated mechanism to be useful so no demand for better as happened with
flintlocks exists.
Bob Roller
 

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2020, 09:21:23 PM »
As far as starting from scratch rather than re-working an assembled lock; has anyone here ever had the experience of assembling a J. Clark lock kit ?  ;D   You definitely had to know what you were doing to get it together and working as it should. !   Great lock , though.

This is the Durs Egg look-alike? I have a set of castings. No fly as I got it.
Yes.   I have seen a couple of pistols made at Colonial Williamsburg which used that lock. A friend bought one of those kits from John some 35 years ago and never did manage to get it working. A
friend of mine , Stuart Newby , a gunsmith from England, worked for John for awhile and used to assemble those locks.  Stuart moved to BC some years ago and has a shop with his son, John.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 09:25:58 PM by bob in the woods »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2020, 09:56:51 PM »
Hi,
Stophel (Chris), I apologize for not responding to your post.  I believe you have the right idea and I think I will try it on my QA lock that considered using for an early Peter Berry rifle.  I'll just keep the flintcock, frizzen, and plate, and replace the rest of the parts with Siler components.

I bailed on the tumbler.  It was hopeless.  There was this mass of metal at the base of the spindle that was supposed to be some sort of shoulder but worse, the spindle is so rough and it has a flat.  If I true it up, I'll have to put a bushing in the lock plate.  The (hopefully) good news is I looked at the QA lock I own and the tumbler was a much better casting so I ordered a replacement.  Possibly it is a quality control issue and the new one will be better. 







I cleaned up the bridle a bit.  It helps with awkward parts like bridles to put a file or stone in a vise and rub the against it.  It works really well. 




I also cleaned up the mainspring and filed a few details to make it look more like the product of English gunmakers rather than the village blacksmith.  I have to clean up the details and polish it and then heat treat it.  I'll wait on that until I put the lock together and balance the springs.  I'm on hold a bit until I have a new tumbler.







« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 10:18:53 PM by smart dog »
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2020, 02:17:35 AM »
is that their new mainspring?  I had heard that they were using forged springs now, instead of cast springs.  Are they doing that for everything?  I didn't really have a problem with their springs as they were (mostly tumblers and sears...).
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Eterry

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2020, 06:15:15 PM »
As a lefty I understand the problems associated with shooting.  I was 31 before i owned a LH bolt gun. I shot on the ROTC rifle team in college and had to use a right hand bolt Anschutz, it didn't help my scores any.  I've owned and built several muzzleloaders  from kits, always a right hand gun because lefty guns are so few and far between.  I finally built a left hand Early Lancaster flintlock from scratch,  finishing it last year.  I know it's probably not HC, but it's what i wanted.

Thanks for the thread Dave,  I'm sure the lefty owner will be thrilled at all the detailed work you're putting into the lock.
Tell him he can always refinance his house... lol.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2020, 07:23:46 PM »
Regarding the lock and the kit offered by John Clark, it is my opinion that L & R used John's lock, basically copying it, to create the Durs Egg lock.  They made a few cosmetic changes and added a detent to the tumbler, but otherwise, it looks identical.  I bought one of John's lock kits at his shop in Tottenham Ontario, on one of my trips back 'home' to visit my parents, assembled it and used it in a Leonard Reedy kit rifle I also purchased from John.  I found the lock to be quite serviceable, and with the single trigger, worked fine without a fly.  I believe I still have a sear spring in my parts box, from that lock.
I had an issue with a sear spring on an L & R lock that had been ground too short so that far too much pressure was required to fire the lock.  I went to the trouble of straightening out the sheet metal spring, and re-forging it to lengthen the working limb so that it came much closer to the pivot screw boss of the sear.  I photographed my work and explained the issue, sending all the data to L & R, with the naive expectation that they would improve their quality control in the very least.  They couldn't even bother to reply, and this issue is still being perpetuated.  I have made a lot of rifles using their products, but I find that not to be the case much anymore.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2020, 08:55:57 PM »
The last 2 locks I made were on the Durs Egg parts from L&R and I have thought
that I have seen a similar lock before and I think it was the Clark lock.I made one
YEARS ago and it had his name on it and I made up my own parts.It has been 10
months since I made the last 2 and I still get inquiries about various locks but that
is one part of my life that is over and I do hope someone will offer an upgraded cap
lock for the Hawken and others.

Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2020, 02:53:01 AM »
Hi,
Josh, my blind friend was over yesterday so I spent most all of my time with him on his rifle.  I am waiting for a new tumbler to finish my work.  In the interim,  I thought I would share insights I've learned about these mid-18th century round-faced locks.  I've worked with a lot of them and built quite a few from cast parts, including military locks.  Round-faced locks were the fashion on British guns of all levels of quality from the late 17th century until the 1750s.  After that time, flat locks increasingly dominated the fashion such that by the 1770s, round-faced locks were usually used only on cheaper trade guns, export guns, livery guns, and most military guns.  It is my understanding that the rounded lock plate and flint cock were easier to forge and swage than flat lock plates with beveled edges (different than the cheap flat dog lock plates without bevels).  The flat plates (with beveled moldings)  required more filing and were more expensive to make.  Hence the rounded locks remained in use particularly on military guns.  However the style had some real advantages for utilitarian locks. Later English locks with flat plates, roller frizzens, short throws, deep "waterproof" pans, stirrup tumblers, etc., were arguably the fastest flintlocks ever made and they balanced speed with reliability.  I believe the round-faced lock survived on military guns partly due to cost but also reliability.  With massive tall and heavy flintcocks, tall heavy frizzens, and powerful mainsprings, they created sparks in the pan despite fouling and dull flints.  The photo below shows the L&R QA frizzen and flint cock compared to a Siler, which is similar in size. Note the taller frizzen and taller and heavier flint cock.




They might not be fast but they fire the 30th and 40th shots despite the grime and wear.  They are the trucks while the late English flintlocks are the sports cars.  The lock below, a Chambers lock, which I tuned, fired 671 rounds using only 10 flints before the first misfire despite humidity, powder fouling, and dull flints with only occasional wiping to clean off the grime and picking the vent hole.




The same lock on my English fowler is on the same journey to that performance. It exemplifies the values of those style of locks.  The flint is going to cut through the grime and with a long stroke backed by the mass and inertia of the heavy flintcock, and the tall frizzen allowing a long scrape, is going to produce sparks.  The photo below shows that lock still sparking when using a rounded piece of quartz from my driveway.


When I tune a mid 18th century round-faced lock, I employ a different strategy than a Durs Egg or later English flint lock  They rely on powerful mainsprings to get that mass of flintcock and flint moving, a long throw to build inertia, stiff resistance from the frizzen initially to allow the flint to cut through fouling for a long scrape. and then the frizzen has to get out of the way.  If you understand that, you can create the most reliable flintlocks (not fastest) ever made.  My goal for the L&R QA lock is to bring it up to that standard.

dave

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Offline smart dog

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2020, 06:23:22 PM »
Hi,
The tumbler finally came and I was able to get the rest of the work done.  The new casting is good quality, far better than the one that came with the lock.  Nonetheless, the tumbler post and bridle spindle fit the lock plate and bridle without any polishing, so truing and polishing will create sloppy fits.  Fortunately, no truing of the post, spindle or tumbler faces is needed but they can benefit from polishing off the bead blasted "as cast" finish.  What worked best was to just install the tumbler, bridle, bridle screw, flint cock, and sear screw, sprinkle aluminum oxide powder on the bearing surfaces and some paraffin oil.  Then I just worked the flint cock back and forth to polish the working surfaces.  I also lightly stoned the sides of the tumbler avoiding the spindles.  You have to be very careful truing or polishing the side of the tumbler with the fly because you may take off too much metal exposing the fly above the surface of the tumbler. 




I polished the sear and bridle with stones and oil and polished the curved face of the sear and the part where the sear spring touches to a mirror finish.  I also mirror polished the foot of the tumbler where the main spring rides.  I cleaned up and polished the flint cock. 




The flat where the tumbler screw is located is larger than the screw head.  I hate that so I filed the surround down until just a tiny bit smaller than the screw head.  Then, I turn the screw to file and polish the head, which reduces its size just right to fill the flat on the cock.  The base of the flint cock is bulgy and amorphous shaped, which I dislike.  Consequently, I filed it into a more even cone that has the tumbler screw as its top.



Next I filed the flint jaws flat and then cut teeth in them with a round-bottomed die sinker's chisel.  The teeth are historically correct and really work holding the leather wrapped flint.  I cleaned up and polished the top jaw using a wooden jig to hold it.  I stoned and polished the lock plate and the frizzen.







I installed the frizzen and frizzen spring to test the action and fit and discovered 2 problems. The fit of the frizzen to the pan was OK before but the extra pressure from the strengthened spring pushed it up and off the pan.  The hole in the frizzen for the screw is bigger than the screw creating a sloppy fit plus it was drilled when the lug on the bottom of the frizzen was in place preventing a good fit.  The only way to really solve the problem completely is to fit a new frizzen with the lug gone, however, I did not want to go that route.  Instead, I made a 6-40 screw that fits the lock plate but was a hair too large for the hole in the frizzen.  Then, using a round file, I removed metal from just the top of the hole until the screw just fit, which brought the front of the frizzen down a tiny bit.  That solved most of the problem, although a sliver of light can still be seen between the pan and frizzen.  The second problem was when I snapped the frizzen open and closed, I heard a clicking noise. It took me a few minutes to figure it out but it was caused by the pin on the frizzen spring moving in the much too large hole in the lock plate.  When the frizzen was closed it pushed the pin down making the noise.  I welded steel into the hole and drilled a new one that fit the frizzen spring.  Problem solved.   

The mainspring is adequate but really did not work well with a stronger frizzen spring.  There is not much you can do to it because the thickness of the spring is pretty thin.  I decided to forge a new and much better spring.  It also looks much more like the springs used on the original looks.   The length is just right such that the hook just rests on the end of the foot of the tumbler when at rest.  Then it slides back at half cock and finally at full cock, it ends right at the bend in the tumbler. Notice how little lifting movement there is going from half to full cock. The hook is very close to the tumbler spindle such that the force diminishes a little as you pull the flint cock back to full.





I case hardened  the frizzen, lock plate, cock, bridle, tumbler, sear, and top jaw.  I harden and temper the sear, bridle, and tumbler together so they have exactly the same treatment.  That means they should be of the same hardness.  If you harden and temper lock internals, my recommendation is always heat treat them as a group.  The plate is pretty thick so I opted not to block it with a heavier plate of steel.  I oriented it in the crucible box so it was on edge as it entered the quench.  The other parts were packed around the plate in a mix of bone and wood charcoal. The box heated in my oven for 2 hours at 1575 degrees and contents quenched in room temperature water.  I am not interested in colors, just a hard surface.  After quenching, I polished the surfaces and tempered the parts.  The frizzen was tempered for 1 hour at 375-390 degrees.  After cooling, I heated the toe of the frizzen to blue color with a butane mini-torch.  The tumbler, bridle, and sear were tempered to 600 degrees for 1 hour.  I also tempered the flint cock and top jaw to that temperature.  However, the owner of the lock liked a temper bronze color for the outside of the lock so I polished off the blue on the flint cock and top jaw and then tempered it again with the lock plate to 470 degrees.  I always temper the cock to 600 degrees initially because I am paranoid about it being too brittle.  However, to match the color of the rest of the lock, I polished off the blue and tempered accordingly.









My last job is to make sure the mainspring and frizzen spring are balanced.  First, I made sure the top of the frizzen spring, and toes of the frizzen, mainspring and tumbler were highly polished. When assembling the lock, make sure the fly is positioned correctly.



After assembling the lock, I measured the force needed to open the frizzen with a trigger pull scale. It was 3 lbs.  Then I checked the force needed to pull the mainspring back from rest to full cock using a hand held luggage scale.  I usually want that force to be 3 times stronger than the force to open the frizzen.  I ground more bevel into the mainspring until the force was 9-10 lbs.  Here is how well it sparks with a well used, dull flint.



The job is done and I don't dare count the hours.  I've gone the extra mile in most everything and do not suggest anyone has to do all of that to make the lock work pretty well.  Nonetheless, all I did was bring it up to a standard close to the originals and half of what I did was required just to bring it up close to par with a Chambers round-face English lock right out of the box.  The end result is a good lock and it should serve its owner well but it is a shame lefties don't have better choices.












dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Eterry

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2020, 01:01:20 AM »
Dave, looking at the before and after pics, its hard to imagine it is the same lock.  What you have done is not just a tune-up, but a TRANSFORMATION! 

I can't wait to get it mounted in a piece of maple.  As Lou said "today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of this earth."

Ten percent of the population is left handed.  It would be nice if lock manufacturers would consider this when they design their product line.

Thank you greatly.
ET

Offline 2 shots

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2023, 06:17:31 AM »
 love the sear spring fix. ;)

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2023, 06:07:24 PM »
This is an amazing transformation as said above. This is how a Master does it.
I quake at the thought of using the same L&R Lock for my Fowler project. I can just hope that the lock will be somewhat adequate for my purposes so that it need not be shipped to a qualified flintlock locksmith to function properly 🫣

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2023, 11:22:19 PM »
This is an amazing transformation as said above. This is how a Master does it.
I quake at the thought of using the same L&R Lock for my Fowler project. I can just hope that the lock will be somewhat adequate for my purposes so that it need not be shipped to a qualified flintlock locksmith to function properly 🫣

I wouldn’t think of wasting my time with a lock like this.  Maybe just use a right handed lock.  Really doesn’t make much difference, especially with a fowler.

Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2023, 03:42:58 AM »
I can see why.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2023, 05:46:47 PM »
This thread goes back 3 years but always interesting. I have used L&R external parts for years and they are a good platform for a custom mechanism and I did make a few left handed as well.Over 100  went to Germany to Helmut Mohr for a target pistol and also caplocks with a Stanton 3 screw mechanism for a Schuetzen rifle,The mechanism IS THE LOCK,It's a small spring driven engine as is a watch and making these was labor intensive and it didn't bother me one bit to send most of them to Europe.Now at 87 I am no longer interested in shop work and am enjoying it.Cold weather coming and NO heat bills for the shop :D :D this year.
Bob Roller

Offline smart dog

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2023, 04:29:15 AM »
Hi,
Jim, then make them a left handed lock. Multiply one of your AutoCad coordinates by -1. It is not the same shooting a right handed lock when you are left eye dominant.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2023, 05:00:14 AM »
I was glad I stumbled onto this thread, it was very interesting and informative. I wish there was a good book on flintlock design and geometry where the theory is well explained. As Bob mentioned it’s a spring driven engine, like a watch. The few mechanical watch books I have read spends chapters on geometry especially the escapement. Bob, you should write a book on lock marking before you go, it would be a shame to have all your knowledge vanish.
With that... Cheers Richard 

Offline alacran

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2023, 01:17:54 PM »
Dave I admire your determination on this project. The results appears to be what you envisioned and you made a beautiful lock.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2023, 07:28:26 PM »
I was glad I stumbled onto this thread, it was very interesting and informative. I wish there was a good book on flintlock design and geometry where the theory is well explained. As Bob mentioned it’s a spring driven engine, like a watch. The few mechanical watch books I have read spends chapters on geometry especially the escapement. Bob, you should write a book on lock marking before you go, it would be a shame to have all your knowledge vanish.
With that... Cheers Richard

I have been asked to write a book but wouldn't know how to start,My interests are so spread out from major classic cars,aircraft,any kind of machinery that can be used in a home shop.Making locks involves first,an interest in small.odd mechanisms that require several skill sets and then getting the tools and the work space.My first one was the back porch and a heavy bench and an Atlas 12x36 lathe + a good vise,
The first locks I made were worse than pathetic and were criticized by those who knew what a lock should be.The caplocks of P.I.Spence who I have mentioned on this forum were a simple design and I copied it after he OK'd it.I have told about visiting him and won't repeat that story now.There were no flintlocks available until the mid 1950's when Chet Shoults in Lapeer Michigan started making them.Nobody at that time had any idea about how he made these and it was finally found that he had precise castings made in milled and polished cavity moulds and those molds cost $5000 to make and were financed by an attorney who had a strong interest in making new flint lock guns,rifles, pistols and smooth bores.I looked at these mechanisms and figured out a way to make them with the tools I had available to me but no way to make the external parts.Later the external parts of the Shoults lock which was copied from a Ketland became available and the moulds to make them passed to another person who made them available to anyone who wanted them and I made a lot of them and sold them after
learning how to make the style of mainspring it needed.After a time in the Army and National Guard I had a shop built and it's still there and
I was able to get nice antique locks to copy or at least make a decent lock from the ideas of long gone makers.The silly answer is to figure out material that can be used and then remove anything that doesn't look like a lock or trigger.My selection of materials are simple and readily available in common commerce and they are sears and "flys" are 0-1.Tumblers are 1144 "Stressproof" and 1075 for springs and all of these are a McMaster=Carr item in small quantities at reasonable cost.The American Hawken rifle and the German Schuetzenbund kept me busy and sometimes I could get help from a friend,Frank Whitmore in making screws. He was a quick study and did a good job but had to quit due to another job offer.I have mentioned Lynton McKenzie here and HE was the one that furnished the fancy caplocks that I was able to
copy.All were from the shops in England that had some great ideas and the crafts people to make them.That was in 1987 and I think I have made about 38-40 of the full size "4 pin" including one set of Left and Right for a double rifle and maybe 8 smaller ones for boys rifles or Rook rifles.
   Going again to flint locks I used the externals from the Shoults,Russ Hamm Maslin,John Clark who made a good lock in Canada and then
the L&R Small Manton.Durs Egg and one with a round tail plate.A Ketland of unknown origin that looked and worked well on the "flint"Hawken.but was $75 and not popular.Later I sent a number of these to Switzerland for a special project for $100 each.
    In 1971 I abandoned the old style slip and slide mechanisms for the flint lock in favor of the linked mainsprings and never went back
to the old style.The caplocks had the linked springs from day one.
    Fancy cars and vintage aircraft are also among my interests but the one forum I was on is not very active and people who can pay millions of $$$ for a car seldom use them as they were intended.I was in EAA644 for a number of years and my favorite old "bird" was a
Cessna 195 and if you see 3435V on a 195,that's the one.Radial engine,high wing classic 1930's style but built in 1948 (I think).It had nu external wing supports and when asked about it I said "It has a wing flapping system"for short field take off and some actually believed that.
Bob Roller
 



« Last Edit: October 10, 2023, 07:33:34 PM by Bob Roller »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2023, 11:34:40 PM »
Hi,
Jim, then make them a left handed lock. Multiply one of your AutoCad coordinates by -1. It is not the same shooting a right handed lock when you are left eye dominant.

dave

I would like to, but this would be a bad financial decision. With a business like ours, these considerations are important.

We have MANY left handed customers who shoot right handed locks with no problem.  Some may not like this, but I think for the majority of left handed shooters it’s no issue to use a right handed lock.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Reworking an L&R Queen Anne lock FINISHED
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2023, 11:48:06 PM »
Hi Jim,
I fully understand the commercial realities.  I also know some left handed shooters using right handed locks very well but i also know as many who cannot.  They just don't have many good lock choices.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."