Ferguson

[varsity07840]

If I’m out of bounds with this, my apologies in advance. I have no dog in this hunt. I don’ buy as is. Has anyone seen the Ferguson sporter on GB that closes in around 10 hours? It’s listed as an “unbranded .58 cal. Rifle with bayonet”. No mention of Ferguson.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

post a link please.

[msellers]

post a link please.

Here you go Taylor.
Mike
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/871491123

[davec2]

Well.....it's sort of a Ferguson....with a lot of fairly weird modifications.  And it looks like it was "rode hard and put away wet " !!!

[smart dog]

Hi,
We should probably move this to the contemporary gun making section.  Regardless, the gun is an attempt to copy a sporter or officer's custom Ferguson rifle by Durs Egg.  The original rifle is on display at the West Point Museum.  I viewed it there but it is also shown in Robert Held's book "The Age of Firearms".  The weird handle under the barrel is for a sliding bayonet if you hadn't already figured that out.  The maker did a good job and the re-creation is pretty accurate. I bet Paul Ackermann (Ackermann Arms) would know something about the maker and project.

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Mike...pretty neat rifle!  I notice the barrel has no crown...guess if you load it from the other end, that's ok.

[Marcruger]

Just a head's-up here.  Note that is a 15-1/2" length of pull.  Too much for this short guy.  Otherwise, an inexpensive way to get a Ferguson if you are handy.  God Bless,   Marc

[ScottH]

Wonder what happened to the flintcock?

[Marcruger]

Did anyone here get that rifle?

I was seriously considering bidding, as the cock and other issues seemed correctable.  The gun itself looked like a nice build when new. 

That 15-1/2" pull left me out though. 

God Bless,   Marc

[conquerordie]

I used to know a reenactor that had one of those. Getting it built cost him his marriage! It's based on a officer models Ferguson supposedly, but probably a individual purchase back in the day. Used a Durrs Egg lock, sliding bayonet, and was reportedly a great shooter.

[Mike Brooks]

What did it go for?

[Stoner creek]

$671.00

[Mike Brooks]

$671.00

Cheap. Could have been restocked into a dandy gun.

[Marcruger]

You are right Mike. But I am no gunstocker. 
That 24” barrel with built in bayonet would also limit what’s possible.
Still, a lot there for $671.

[helwood]

Greetings Dave,
I am totally impressed that you had "The Age of Firearms" by Robert Held identified.  It took me awhile to find the book in  my library, let alone remember that I had seen it.  pg 150 and 151.   --Nice Call--         Later, Hank

[smart dog]

Hi Helwood,
Thanks.  I have a pretty good memory, at least for now.

dave

[Marcruger]

My friend and I were discussing the Fergusons two days ago.  Years back at Kings Mountain he had been shown a Ferguson that was reputed to be from the battle. It was later apparently stolen. 

I am a tad skeptical of those rifles being at Kings Mountain, but I am open to hearing about first person documentation.

I've read up on them over the years, and personally think it may be a case of Major Ferguson being the only link between Kings Mountain and the rifles. 

Obviously, with one good arm, Ferguson himself did not carry a rifle, fusil, carbine, etc in his last battle. 

Ferguson was the only regular British soldier in the group, which were otherwise made up of Loyalist Carolina militia from what I have read.  It seems to me unlikely that a southern loyalist militiaman would have been carrying a fairly experimental and temperamental rifle (with no gunsmith support) originally only issued to Ferguson's Experimental Rifle Corps that was disbanded after September 1777 and dispersed back to their original units. 

Does anyone have any further information?

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[Horsecavalryman]

This rifle sold for less than the barreled action alone from TRS to say nothing of the wait... Which it's worth it in my opinion.  These rifles were at King's Mountain the size balls used were found there in quantity.  The go to sourse for things Ferguson is:https://www.amazon.com/Every-Insult-Indignity-Patrick-Ferguson/dp/1466255625    This is the missing manual.  The Whigs at Kings Mountain offered parole to captured Tory officers if they would show them how to fire their captured arms.   Ricky Roberts figured out via experimental archeology "Living History" how to load and fire TRS(Narragansett) replica Fergusons exactly as documented in the British ordinance tests  with Patrick Loading and firing.   Ricky has successfully fired over 40rnds without cleaning or jams.  Loaded , emptied a canteen of water in bore and then reloaded and fired within one minute without removing the ball.  5-aimed shots a minute.  Firing & loading both prone and at a walking pace with the bayonet attached.  "FIRST ASSAULT RIFLE"
The enigma is over. Read the book but heed my warning.  Fergusonitis makes Covid look like the sniffles. I've had one built, started a pistol and traded it and am starting a carbine...

[Horsecavalryman]

Top is original Durs' Egg Officers Mdl. at West Point

Lower is The Rifle Shoppe's #513 Ferguson "ordinance rifle" with 30" sword bayonet.
https://www.amazon.com/Every-Insult-Indignity-Patrick-Ferguson/dp/1466255625

[FlintFan]

  These rifles were at King's Mountain the size balls used were found there in quantity. 

The Ferguson rifle used a standard carbine ball.  It would be not uncommon to find that sized ball at most Revolution battlefield sites.

[wormey]

That would be a .615 carbine ball.  They did find a flint cock that appears to have come from a Ferguson Rifle.  Another tidbit, all 5 surviving Ferguson military rifles came out of the post civil war south!  I`m with Ricky and Earl Lanning.  I believe they were there as well.  Earl ought to know, he was there or at least talked to someone who was!  ;)Wormey, proud Ferguson owner and shooter.

[Horsecavalryman]

I got my second copy of "Every Insult and Indignity" by Ricky Roberts.  When first got infected with Fergusonitis I read Draper's Heros of King's Mtn.  There in he relates the Loyalists driving back Back Water Boys charges with Bayonet charges and then retiring uphill firing as they went.  Also one Tory firing from under a wagon(prone) found to have several balls in his mouth.  Whigs claimed he was chewing them to make wounds more grevious.  Anyone who has seen Ricky's speed loading video would realize that he was spitting them in breech of a Ferguson rifle to load. 5 times a minute.  Also the .615 standard British Carbine balls and glazed powder he got from supply in Charleston would match requirements for his rifle as well. His militia were armed with captured French arms.  What other arms present would have been carbine caliber.     Pictured is my second case of Fergusonitis Pistol project.

[FlintFan]

What other arms present would have been carbine caliber.   

A large percentage of arms used on both sides of the engagement, both civilian and military issue. In an battle where most of the combatants were irregulars I wouldn't be surprised to find balls that were not of musket size to outnumber those that were. 

The use of the standard size carbine ball was common in civilian fusils, fowlers, etc. ,and would have been prevalent on the American side.

[120RIR]

There's a lot of indirect and circumstantial evidence supporting the assertion that Ferguson rifles were at King's Mountain but here is also now a piece of hard evidence.  A "battlefield archaeology" team from the University of Florida recently (I think it was just some months or ago or in 2019...I'll have to confirm) recovered a fired and partially flattened round ball with very prominent and well-defined land and groove impressions.  I emphasize "very" because it's not like they're faint residual scratches that might come from a thinly patched ball or anything like that. One could always come up with an alternative explanation of it coming from some other type of firearm (I suppose anything is possible), but it seems pretty unlikely.