Southern Horn

[Tim Crosby]

 This horn is loosely based on a horn pictured in C. Michael Briggs book, Piedmont North Carolina Banded Powder Horns Hunting Bags & Bullet Molds.
 It is 15" around the outside curve, the turned Walnut base is about 2 3/4", with a staple for the strap, the applied band is turned horn and is help on with the same 4 steel pins that hold the base in. The applied tip is about 3 1/4" and is made of turned antler, the stopper is turned Walnut. The horn is only 9/16" were it meets the tip. There is a staple in the neck for the strap.
 As always your comments/critiques good or bad are welcome.

Tim C.

[Manfred]

Tim,
No criticisms here  .  Just really nice work.
Manfred

[Ky Ken]

Nice Tim. Ken

[G. Elsenbeck]

I love the colors and how they compliment each other not to mention the smooth shapes of the horn.  Great job Tim and good luck in Lexington.  You are sure to fill up your table with no problem.  Let's hope you have don't have to take them all back home. 
Gary

[seesbirds]

Beautiful.  Tastefully done.  Keep up the good work.

Mark Preston

[smorrison]

Very nice Tim.  Is the tip applied or a screw tip?
Scott

[Tim Crosby]

Very nice Tim.  Is the tip applied or a screw tip?
Scott

 The tips is applied, two steel pins hold it on.

 Tim C.

[Tim Crosby]

 Gary, I do not have a table at the CLA show. I'm just a drooler...I mean spectator.
To me the show makes the saying; "Kid in a candy store" come true.

 Tim C. 

[G. Elsenbeck]

AAAhhhhh Tim, another kid in a candy store like me!  I can't make it this year and I'm not so sure going to two of them so close to each other (Dixons) wouldn't be a good idea.  So many things to drool over, so many questions, not enough money, things to drool over, sigh.   Have a blast.
Gary

[Jefferson58]

Tim:

It was great to finally meet you at CLA and get a chance to see this horn in person. It is, as I thought, a beautiful horn. Great work.

Thanks again for stopping by our table.

Jeff

[Ole Doc]

  Nice lines and the colors do blend well ...
Tip really flows well to the horn , be nice to see it with a strap in place.
  Nice

[Randy Hedden]

Tim,

I don't understand the placement of the staple down by the spout?  Did the picture of the horn in C. Michael Briggs' book show the staple nearly on the bottom of the horn?  A few months back in a thread about Pennsylvania screw tips and the placement of the front staple, I said I thought the staple was placed so as to orient the horn when the strap went under the staple and around the horn.  I believe it was Art DeCamp or Gary Brumfield that said that in all the originals he had seen,  the strap was only under the staple and not around the horn.  He deduced this from the fact that the originals show no strap wear on the horn from the strap going around the horn.  All the originals I have seen had no straps on them and I have not had a chance, or forgot to check for strap wear on the ones I saw a couple of weeks ago at The Prairie State Long Rifle Show.  I did check several screw tip horns for thread size, but that is for another thread.

Randy Hedden  

[Brian]

I've never seen an original so can't comment on that.  I defer to Randy on that for sure.  As a personal observation however, it would certainly be stronger if the strap went around the horn, and the staple was essentially just to keep the strap in position - not carry the weight.

[frenchman]

Concerning horn bands , are they all made with horn or some made with wood.
Denis

[G. Elsenbeck]

Denis, they are made of horn.  Why? because one of the major reasons by heating the horn band prior to installation is the heated band will conform to the irregular shape of the powder horn after it cools.  Kind of hard to to with woood.   
Gary

[Tim Crosby]

Tim,

I don't understand the placement of the staple down by the spout?  Did the picture of the horn in C. Michael Briggs' book show the staple nearly on the bottom of the horn?  A few months back in a thread about Pennsylvania screw tips and the placement of the front staple, I said I thought the staple was placed so as to orient the horn when the strap went under the staple and around the horn.  I believe it was Art DeCamp or Gary Brumfield that said that in all the originals he had seen,  the strap was only under the staple and not around the horn.  He deduced this from the fact that the originals show no strap wear on the horn from the strap going around the horn.  All the originals I have seen had no straps on them and I have not had a chance, or forgot to check for strap wear on the ones I saw a couple of weeks ago at The Prairie State Long Rifle Show.  I did check several screw tip horns for thread size, but that is for another thread.

Randy Hedden  

 The horn in the book does not have a staple in the neck, I added it. There are others in the book that have staples in the neck and they also off to one side. Other pictures show some that are with bags that have the strap going through the staple and around the horn others just through the staple.
  In the book Powder horns, Documents of History by Tom Grinslade some examples of Virgina horns are shown and two of four have the staple off to one side,the other two do not appear to have staples, unless they are on the other side or have been removed.
  The position of the staple on the pictured horn allows the horn to be worn on the left if the strap goes only through the staple or on the right if it goes through the staple and around the horn. Hope this answers the question.

 Tim C.

PS: I did talk to Art Decamp at the CLA show about placement of staples and he seems to think that the strap went through the staple and not around the horn. Based on the lack of strap shadows on originals that have staples. I agree in part with that except for the examples I have seen with the strap off to one side.TC

[Randy Hedden]

Tim,

Perhaps we have used staples for different purposes??  I always used the front staple to orient the horn so it would lay correctly and snugly against the side when worn.  I always used the staple with the strap through the staple and around the horn to make the horn lay in a slightly different position then what it would naturally.  This certainly put the staple off to one side or the other, but I had never seen one so far off to the side as the one on this horn.  This is why I asked the question about the staple placement.

Then Art, who certainly knows more about such horns than I do, indicated that the strap did not go around the horn.  Art's remarks made me reconsider where I should place the staple.  I have not seen Tom Grinslade's new powder horn book.  I had intended to pick one up at the CLA show, but didn't get around to it. Guess I will have to order one through the mail.

I didn't become interested in screw tip or banded horns until two or three years ago and am just trying to learn all I can about them.  Until that time I was firmly entrenched in making double twist, scrimshawed F&I powder horns. 

Randy Hedden

[Tim Crosby]

Tim,

Perhaps we have used staples for different purposes??  I always used the front staple to orient the horn so it would lay correctly and snugly against the side when worn.  I always used the staple with the strap through the staple and around the horn to make the horn lay in a slightly different position then what it would naturally.  This certainly put the staple off to one side or the other, but I had never seen one so far off to the side as the one on this horn.  This is why I asked the question about the staple placement.
Randy Hedden

 I think we are thinking the same thing. I put the the staple on this one down were I thought it would best balance it,if that makes any sense. And so the horn could be worn on either side.
 I still have a lot to learn. I.E. twisted staples, the judges at Dixion's didn't think much of them at all and I never really thought about it until they gave me some reasoning why not to have them.

 Tim C.

[G. Elsenbeck]

You're both right!  Everybody is right!  One thing we need to keep reminding ourselves in our learning and understanding of this craft is that the made 'blanket' statements aren't iron clad facts!  What may be absolute true on one particular horn won't hold water on another.  Not only were there differences between hornsmiths in their methodology compound that with the desires of the customer that wanted a right side carry made to lay on the left.  Why?  I don't know.  Absence of evidence doesn't always lead to the correct assumption.   What of if some horns with these particular characteristics were failures made by the hornsmith's apprentices?
Sorry guys, but all these questioning of things come from years of training and applications on the path of 'truth' and I really do enjoy the road of discovery.
Gary

[Randy Hedden]

I still have a lot to learn. I.E. twisted staples, the judges at Dixion's didn't think much of them at all and I never really thought about it until they gave me some reasoning why not to have them.

 Tim C.

Tim,

I wouldn't say Never, but I have not seen a square twisted staple on an old powder horn.  That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, only that I haven't seen one.  I have looked at lots and lots of old powder horns and see only plain staples.  I have assumed for some years now that the square twisted staples are a modern concoction.  I was telling this to a new horner at the CLA show.  He wasn't buying it until I said that the staple is never seen once a strap is installed, so any decorative purpose is lost and a square twisted staple would only make the staple wear through the strap faster.  I use round stock staples only on my horns.

Another thing that a lot of guys do is they make the staples from stock that is to large in diameter.


Randy Hedden

[Randy Hedden]

Not only were there differences between hornsmiths in their methodology compound that with the desires of the customer that wanted a right side carry made to lay on the left.  Why?  I don't know. 
Gary

Gary,

I know we go to extremes looking for right side or left side carry horns to build powder horns, but I believe this is a relatively modern concept.  In looking at old powder horns I see some of what we would call a left side carry powder horn actually made to wear on the right side.  These horns often look strange to me, but wear on the back of the powder horn shows what side they were worn on.  This really looks strange to me when I see a large "left side carry" double twist F&I style horn that was turned upside down and made into a right side carry horn.  After all, the old time horn makers had to do something with the "left side carry" horns.  Then again, perhaps they used most of the left side carry horns for other horn projects rather then for powder horns??

Randy Hedden

[G. Elsenbeck]

Randy, ain't this fun?  Another theory regarding F&I and Revolutionary War horns is why the horn was wore on the left (or right side) by the 'soldiers' is they were already carrying their 'cartridge boxes' on the right side not leaving any room.  Plus the soldiers didn't want something else in the way when 'in the line' firing upon the enemy.  The horns they did carry, whether they were right or left side, didn't really manner as long as they had a powder horn to carry their extra powder.  Presumably the horn's availabilty helps to continue the fight should they run out of 'pre-made cartridges' and/or to make more once back in camp, if they survived.
And yes, I'm beginning to use all round stock for making my staples now.  As you pointed out once the strap is applied any 'niceities' embedded or incorporated in the staple are lost.  Don't you think our forefathers thought of that too?  Like today, time is money, and more used on unneeded embellishments to improve function or form are wasted,,,, and unprofitable.
Good exchange. 

[James Rogers]

Not only were there differences between hornsmiths in their methodology compound that with the desires of the customer that wanted a right side carry made to lay on the left. 

I am coming into this conversation with two deficiencies. 1. I am not as familiar with the hornsmith's history as I am with their products. 2. I always focus on 18th century instead of from present day backwards when considering production specifics, styles, etc.

With that said, how many hornsmiths  in 18th or 19th century America were available taking specific orders to their customer's desires?  I know there were horns made for British officer's, there were factory made horns produced in the 19th century, there were the numerous home made affairs. Is there documentation that this was standard practice to place orders for specifics? I look at the gun trade and while I see a gunsmith might do a few different things on his guns, they all have common themes and most of the time are cut from a standard pattern.

In short, how much was the customer involved in a powder horn purchase if it was not self made?

Thanks
James

[Randy Hedden]

Randy, ain't this fun?  Another theory regarding F&I and Revolutionary War horns is why the horn was wore on the left (or right side) by the 'soldiers' is they were already carrying their 'cartridge boxes' on the right side not leaving any room.  Plus the soldiers didn't want something else in the way when 'in the line' firing upon the enemy.  The horns they did carry, whether they were right or left side, didn't really manner as long as they had a powder horn to carry their extra powder.  Presumably the horn's availability helps to continue the fight should they run out of 'pre-made cartridges' and/or to make more once back in camp, if they survived.

Gary,

I am not so sure that the average Rev War soldier carried a powder horn along with his cartridge box.  The issued 1777 English cartridge box held 29 cartridges.  American cartridge boxes were all over the place as far as capacity. Some held as few as 9 cartridges. The average battle consisted of a very few shots and then a bayonet charge.  Riflemen in rifle companies would have carried a powder horn. but not a cartridge box.  With each army there were armorers who, along with several assistants, repaired muskets and made sure they were in good working order.  I believe that I have read that another job duty of these armorers was to make the cartridges for the soldiers.  Now I suppose that in some cases the sargents of a company of soldiers might have made some cartridges in a pinch, but making cartridges was most likely not a task performed by the common soldiers. Perhaps someone who knows more about this topic will chime in??

Randy Hedden 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Randy, that's useful information.  Perhaps Gus can chime in giving us some further insight regarding the armorers tasks.  Up to this I just assumed individual soldiers were responsibile for ensuring they had enough powder and ball.   
Gary