observation on a Peter Angstadt rifle

[DaveM]

I've been trying to study to learn more about the Angstadt family rifles, and how to identify one from another angstadt maker as well as how angstadt rifles evolved over time.  And finding I have lots to learn! 

As I was studying Kindig #58, which appears to be one of the earlier (earliest??) signed Peter Angstadt rifles, I noticed that the nose of the comb, where it meets the wrist, may have been modified (notched) from its original configuration.  The rifle has a fairly abrupt drop at the nose of the comb to the wrist - but looking closely at the photo it appears that perhaps this was notched from a more gentle curve it had originally. 

I only bring this up because the shape of this portion of the comb may not have evolved over time on his rifles like one may think (or I used to think); and the shape for the nose of the comb may have stayed more consistent.  Of course I may be incorrect, but if this is the case, this is valuable to know for study and for those recreating such a rifle. 

Does anyone know if this is considered the earliest Peter angstadt rifle? Erik K.?  is it ok to post this photo - if not, I'll delete - someone can let me know.

[WESTbury]

Dave,
 I know that with my book, the text and photos are copyrighted. I'm sure that it is the case with Kindig's book.

Kent

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave I'm fairly certain that the nose of the comb there has been reshaped slightly, probably a bit more abrupt than original.  None of his rifles are dated, to my knowledge, so all we can do is look at the progression of them (there are quite a few surviving) and make some intelligent speculation.  I believe the rifles with the lion carving (as per the Kindig rifles) are his earliest, probably late 1780s or early in the 1790s.  Conversely, the rifle which was auctioned through the Hench auction and which I recently had here is probably one of his latest, ca. 1810 + or - a few years.  And he died in 1815.  Looking at the lion rifles on one side of the spectrum, and then looking at the previously-Hench rifle and one or two others very much like it, the rifles get skinnier and the furnishings shrink, as well as more 'Roman nose' in butt shaping and the step wrist pretty much disappears.

There are also some very funky pieces either marked or attributed to him which are difficult to place, as they seem practically out in left field.  PA folk art, crazy designs, and very different than the lion rifles or the others.

Trying to pin down his personality is something of an enigma.  He was obviously extremely creative, not locked into one specific straightjacketed style, and apparently had moments of just plain wackiness.

I've always assumed he was either a little nuts or an alcoholic - joking, but also slightly serious!

[DaveM]

Eric, thanks for your thoughts - is the Hench gun the one with the "IM" thumb piece?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yep.

[Dennis Glazener]

  is it ok to post this photo - if not, I'll delete - someone can let me know.

ALL written work is under copyright protection for the person that did the writing ( even
my post here, see  https://www.writersdigest.com/business-legal-matters/copyright-law-101) . I would think one photo would fall under the "fair use" principle defined here https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/copyrightinfo/fairuse.html
Dennis

[DaveM]

Very interesting to look at the "IM" rifle.  And I found another similar one I found through Morphy, that supposedly was used by John Wayne in a movie.  that looks very similar, and they say is signed "AA87" for 1787, but looking at the photo of the signature not sure really what it says!  To me that signature looks a lot like the "IM" rifle signature.   

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes that is the "Allegheny Uprising" rifle.  Apparently it's lost it's forestock since the movie, at which time I think it was original.  But that one has been very heavily worked over, lots of repairs.  The signature is approximately "P Anstat" or "Peter Anstat" or similar, with his funky combination of lower/uppercase letters, there's no number involved.  Additionally it has the funny little face after the signature which is also on the Hench rifle; I feel pretty strongly that they're caricature self-portraits, which reinforces my belief that he was a bit nutty.  This one might be a bit earlier than the Hench rifle, might be around 1800 or so, or could be contemporaneous.  Really tough to tell with this guy.

Funny to think about how many old guns were used in those 1940s - 1950s - 1960s movies, and probably treated pretty roughly, too!

[Eric Kettenburg]

You know Kindig mentioned that he had 4 of them with the lion carving.  I've seen three other complete rifles w/ the same carving and box that were not part of the original Kindig group, and one that was a buttstock and barrel with a break through the forearm.  So that makes 8 of those that I know about.  then you have these slightly later pieces, the movie rifle and the Hench auction rifle (2 more) as well as conservatively I would estimate iirc, say 3 more that I've seen pretty much just like them (so total of 5).  Then there are a couple of really left-field pieces marked "P.A." which clearly *seem* to be him, although are quite different with different boxes, carving and architecture (although they still look Berks-y).  So just ball parking it, that's 15-16+ (at least) of his rifles which have survived.  That's a pretty darned good survival rate for a guy who died in 1815 and probably didn't start actively gunsmithing until after the War.  Lot's of unanswered questions with him and his younger brother Joseph as well.

[DaveM]

I had no idea that many of the "lion" type have survived - would love to see photos of more of them.  I think some "PA" guns are by a later Peter - for example, I saw photos of one signed "P.C. Angstadt" that had to be at least 1825-1830.  I read that the fancy tomahawk was also signed "P.C. Angstadt".

Your thought that he did a self portrait makes a lot of sense to me.  If you zoom in, it actually looks like it at one time was a fairly detailed portrait originally, now with lots of wear - for example looking closely at the chin / neck it seems detailed. 

I wonder if Peter's brother Joseph ever used this same Peter-type patchbox?  If so, I've not seen a signed one by Joseph with the Peter-type box. 

I also speculated maybe Joseph may have been a bit more limited artistically than Peter - where perhaps Joseph / Peter's father Adam may have been the artistic helpful hand on some of Joseph's work??  Maybe Joseph and his father Adam mostly worked together more as a pair.

it is kind of shocking how rough the John Wayne rifle got!  too bad - very cool though - definitely looks like the same gun as the movie photos.

[Eric Kettenburg]

You're better placed than I (being that you're down in Berks) to check records, but I am fairly positive also that there was at least one later Peter Angstadt also building rifles, if not possibly two.  I think there are some records of one in Kutztown proper, in which the 'lion-carving Peter' (the guy we're discussing) never lived.  A subsequent Peer would not be a son, it would be possibly a nephew or other relative.

I've never seen a Joseph rifle with the 'standard' Peter box, either.  Jospeh's work is also interesting and can be a slightly funky, but it's nothing like his brother's.

[Buck]

According to the research I’ve seen there’s 3. Peter 1 - brother of Adam, Peter 2 son of Adam and peter 3 ( if I remember correctly) son of Peter 2. No Adam 1 rifles have ever been found - speculation is the 2 rifles identified as possible Moll rifles in “Thoughts” are actually Adam rifles and he was an apprentice to Johannes Moll the 1st. Their farms were adjacent on the “South Mountain”. I’m not the author / researcher of this material, but it comes from one of the “original” members of the KRA. I’ve seen this gentlemen’s rifles (2) that are identical to the Kindig pieces side by side with other signed Angstat rifles and it’s hard to argue the evidence.

I have one of the initialed PA rifles, I’ll post some pictures of it later. I wouldn’t think it’s Peter 1, It does however follow the Lehigh profile and not the typical Berks. Eric I’d appreciate any feedback you could provide after I post the pictures. My thoughts are maybe Peter 2 apprenticed to Peter 1, the work is very similar. Peter 3 probably apprenticed to Abraham after he took over the Angstat and Sons shop.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

The "original" Peter, according to Angstadt family info as I've seen it, was a brother to Adam and was a son of the original immigrant Hans George Angstadt.  There is no evidence at all that this Peter (Peter 1) was a gunsmith, only some anecdote with no source info to back this up.  Peter 2 was a son of Adam and it seems fairly clear that he made most if not all of the Peter Angstadt signed or attributed rifles, beginning (probably earliest) with the lion-carved pieces ca. late 1780s or more likely through the 1790s.  He was born 1763 so I sincerely doubt he was involved in gun work until after the War was over.  There there seems to have been a 3rd Peter as you note, although I have not been able to definitively place him.  I don't think he was a son of Peter 2, in fact I'm not clear on any children of Peter 2.  His will of 1815 and probate mentions only his wife Catherine who was left with fairly substantial debt.

Many of the old county histories and family anecdote mention Hans George Angstadt as a gunsmith on the 'Lobachsville Pike' or Lobachsville road, but I think these anecdotes are actually misplaced remembrance of Johannes Moll who was on 50 acres fairly adjoining the Angstadt farm and was actually documented as a gunsmith there in Rockland twp by 1752/1753, before moving to Allentown in the early 1760s.  There is absolutely no evidence that Hans George Angstadt was a gunsmith or gun stocker.  Moll could not have trained Peter 2 unless he (Peter) moved to Allentown as a child, as Moll was already in Allentown by the time Peter 2 was born.

The rifles that Kindig attributed as 'early Molls' are very interesting pieces, and there are at least 3 or 4 more of them by the same guy in addition to those pictured in Kindig.  One of them was pictured and discussed here long ago as being found in a wall down in NC, with a patchbox that resembles a hand holding a violin neck, but the whole story fell apart when seriously examined and furthermore, someone soon after butchered the gun in an attempt to spuriously alter it so as to try to tie it to Moravian work.  Much discussion was made of Jacob Loesch but it seems quite unlikely.  I don't know who the guy was who was stocking up those rifles in question, but there are some small similarities with some of the Angstadt work. They do seem to have originated somewhere in Northampton or eastern Berks Co, but none of them are signed.  They also appear to be earlier than the Peter (2) Angstadt rifles we are discussing.  The gentleman you mention has one also, very interesting piece with what appears to be stamped box engraving.  To my knowledge none of this string of rifles are signed but they all are clearly made by one man or one shop.  Big mystery!

[DaveM]

I recently have been doing some fairly comprehensive (painful!) original records research on the Angstadts.  I have too many notes to place here but may be able to answer some specific questions - but for example, as Eric notes, Adam (I) had a brother Peter - he can be found in early Berks records, including as a single man in Robeson Township, in 1768 - also a single man on that tax list was a young 18-year old John Reiffsnyder - I believe he may be the same John Reiffsnyder that later was a rifle maker in downtown Reading.  By 1783, this Peter was living in Manheim Twp, Lancaster County.  As for gunsmiths named Peter - he was the first, then the one born in 1763 was the second / primary one.  The only other Peter Angstadt I have found noted as a gunsmith was born in PA in 1807, moved to Germany, Montgomery County Ohio by 1838.  He and his family were in Ohio until at least 1850, and by 1860 they were living in Tipton, Indiana.  I THINK he was another unknown son of Joseph Angstadt (Peter's brother born 1765).    Another one of Joseph's sons moved to Ohio also, but a different location.  I found no evidence of Peter (born 1763) having a son Peter that became a gunsmith.  This Peter (born 1763) had a son Joseph that did become a gunsmith.  confused yet??

[spgordon]

As for gunsmiths named Peter - he was the first, then the one born in 1763 was the second / primary one. 

In his post just above, Eric doubted that the first Peter A (Adam's brother) was a gunsmith. Did you find him identified as a gunsmith in the records you've been looking at (single man in Robeson Township, in 1768, by 1783 in Manheim Twp, Lancaster County)?

Scott

[DaveM]

Scott- I’ll double check but I did not trace him much assuming someone already knew he was a gunsmith - I’ll check further

[davebozell]

I have seen census records that show that Abraham Angstadt and his son Adam also moved to the Tipton area between 1850 and 1860.  My father has a plain percussion rifle made by Adam after their move.  I did not realize that others from the Angstadt family moved there at about the same time.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dave I would definitely be interested in anything indicating that Peter 1 was a gunsmith or gun stocker, because as of currently, I've never seen anything concrete to indicate this.

[Mike Brooks]

What I want to know is can you actually see down the barrel when you shoulder those funky Angstadt rifles?

[DaveM]

As for the Peter Angstadt that moved to Lancaster - unfortunately no, I have not yet found any records noting his occupation. 

In summary, Peter Angstadt is noted in:

Berks County:
Ruscobmanor (single man) 1758
Rockland (single man) 1759
Rockland 1760
Rockland 1761 (2 Peter Angstadts - one taxed and one on single men list - assume two different people but not sure)
Rockland 1762
Rockland 1765
Rockland 1766
Robeson 1767 with 50-acres land
Robeson 1768 (2 Peter Angstadts - one on tax list one on single mens list - again assume two people but not sure)
by 1770 neither Peter Angstadt nor John Reiffsnyder are listed in Robeson.  Could not find Peter Angstadt in the 1770's

Lancaster County
1781 through 1785 Manheim Township, Lancaster County
could not find him after 1785

[DaveM]

Scott I meant to add, in 1768 Peter was noted to have only 3-acres “cleared land” so that likely rules out him being a farmer

[Eric Kettenburg]

I wonder if it's possible that Peter #2, who is generally accepted as the maker of all or most of these Peter Angstadt signed rifles and who died in 1815 (specifically noted as gunsmith) in Rockland, was older than believed and the birth date of 1763 is incorrect?  That might explain the two Peters on the tax lists in the appropriate area Rockland/Robeson.  Otherwise that makes for potentially 4 Peter Angstadts and a bigger headache.

Where did you find info on lion-carving Peter #2 having a son named Joseph?  That's extremely interesting!

[Eric Kettenburg]

Mike every one that I've shouldered has been pretty good, but I'm really not picky.  The Hench auction rifle that I recently had here shouldered quite nicely for such a small skinny rifle, but would have been just fine for me with period-appropriate loads (i.e. none of this 120 gr in a .50 cr ap).  A lot of these will bump you in the cheek a bit but that means you just need to get a tougher cheek.  Will serve you well on Saturday nights hahahahahahahaha.

[Buck]

All,

Pics - Rifle is void of restoration, only a re-conversion back to flint. Raised carved behind the cheek, incised everywhere else. The fore stock has a drapery detail that appears and disapperaers as you roll it in the light. Really cool piece.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Buck that's a perfect example of one of the "funky" P.A. marked rifles which raises more questions than answers.  Small details here and there lead one to think, "hmmm.  This looks like it might be the same guy."   Then other aspects completely turn that notion on it's head.  The architecture is different; the furnishings are different; box and decorative details are different; signature is different! 

I've come to looks at pieces like this as potentially being by a different Peter Angstadt, the guy I refer to as Peter 3.  It's very hard to view these as being by the same guy that made the lion-carved rifles or the later rifles with the same box and hardware.