Author Topic: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers  (Read 7540 times)

Offline AsMs

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2020, 03:15:45 AM »
Jim, is your head spinning with all these suggestions 🙂

Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2020, 03:32:05 AM »
Opened a can of worms there didn't you, Jim.
Bob
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2020, 10:46:09 PM »
Delete all of these suggestions, Jim, and cogitate on what YOU think would be appropriate.
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Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Kevin

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2020, 11:22:44 PM »
Mr. Kibler,

Maybe consider offering barrels bored to use a .375 ball?  Maybe one offered up configured for later rifles such as Joseph Long built?

Thank you,
Kevin

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2020, 07:27:58 PM »
    Through all my years I have heard so many people talk about guns being to heavy. I think if somebody made swamped barrels with a faster taper from the breech, a longer straight section and a smaller flare at the muzzle this could lighten them up some. I would do this in the most popular calibers, 45 to 58cal. I know i seen one orginal gun with a barrel like this. Best I remember the taper from the breech ended in about 12in and a slight flare starting 4 or 5in before the muzzle. The barrel was about 44in long. It was a good looking long slim gun. I seen this many years ago at a gun and knife show in Missouri. A little food for thought.    Al
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2020, 07:47:30 PM »
I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections.  I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles.  But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category.  Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre.  I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2020, 11:11:20 PM »
I too have handled few ( 6 IIRC ) original long rifles but have been fortunate to have been able to handle 20 -25 original Hawken guns and some other plains type rifles. My impression with all of them was that modern man would not make the grade if 9+ lbs. is too heavy. But that being said the average shooter of these guns now days is on the down hill side of his shooting/hunting life style and yes I include myself in that group.

Offline Goo

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2020, 04:24:48 AM »
If you are thinking to offer a smooth bore Fowler barrel you should spend some time talking to Ken Netting.     Unlike what is commercially available his barrels are graceful and balanced.   They are light in the muzzle and comfortable to shoulder.  The series of tapers found in original barrels are complex and his barrel work mirrors what was done in fine original barrels.    Modern Fowler barrels are too thick heavy and clumsy his are exact replicas of originals. 
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2020, 05:19:58 AM »
Outside the standards I'd like to see a French Trade gun barrel in the original, I believe, 14 bore and a .75 straight small bore barrel 38"ish for Tennessee guns. I know they're not in the 'swamped' variety, but that's the contrarian in me I guess.....

I'm excited to see what you produce Jim. I also like your GM choice.

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2020, 09:56:23 AM »
I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections.  I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles.  But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category.  Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre.  I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
 
   It's not about what was, it's about what people want today.   Al
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Offline alacran

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2020, 02:30:00 PM »
I too have handled few ( 6 IIRC ) original long rifles but have been fortunate to have been able to handle 20 -25 original Hawken guns and some other plains type rifles. My impression with all of them was that modern man would not make the grade if 9+ lbs. is too heavy. But that being said the average shooter of these guns now days is on the down hill side of his shooting/hunting life style and yes I include myself in that group.
Those guns were owned by men who had horses, not just one but a string and maybe a pack mule. They wouldn't venture as far as the outhouse on foot.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Clint

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2020, 05:11:15 AM »
I would love to see a 1.25" breech, swamped with a .56" fast twist. Mabey a little on the long side.

Offline GANGGREEN

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2020, 03:58:00 PM »
I prefer light, longer barrels generally and would prefer to see something like Rice's Southern Classic.   Interesting comments on this thread regarding what's PC/HC and what was not.   I don't really feel too strongly one way or the other about such things.  I'm very glad that there are historians here and builders who care about learning all they can about the traditional firearms and accoutrements.  That said, I have to wonder if this isn't one of those things where early Americans also would have loved to have much lighter guns if they could.   I don't know enough about the quality of iron/steel that they had back in the day, but it seems to me that the materials and processes that they used necessitated a heavier rifle.  And, sure, if your idea is that we should build exactly as they did and use the same materials and processes as they did, then more power to you, but there are darn few of us (if any) that aren't taking advantage of modern processes and better materials.   Just look at this thread, look at Jim's CNC locks, etc..

Offline Ezra

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2020, 05:08:28 PM »
I would love to see longer barrels available.  48” and up. 


Ez
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Offline Tommy Bruce

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2020, 05:22:35 PM »
Jim, I'm a big fan of the B and C weight 44" barrel.  It would also be nice to have a shorter Jaeger barrel.  I'm probably jumping the gun here, but a righteous 4ft fowling piece barrel that wasn't front heavy would be really cool as well!
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Offline tiswell

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2020, 10:18:17 PM »
Jim, are you planning to cut rifle or button rifle? The topic of steel has been mentioned but are you planning on using 1137 or 12L14 or something else for the barrels that you rifle?

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Offline Elnathan

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2020, 10:33:56 PM »
I prefer light, longer barrels generally and would prefer to see something like Rice's Southern Classic.   Interesting comments on this thread regarding what's PC/HC and what was not.   I don't really feel too strongly one way or the other about such things.  I'm very glad that there are historians here and builders who care about learning all they can about the traditional firearms and accoutrements.  That said, I have to wonder if this isn't one of those things where early Americans also would have loved to have much lighter guns if they could.   I don't know enough about the quality of iron/steel that they had back in the day, but it seems to me that the materials and processes that they used necessitated a heavier rifle.  And, sure, if your idea is that we should build exactly as they did and use the same materials and processes as they did, then more power to you, but there are darn few of us (if any) that aren't taking advantage of modern processes and better materials.   Just look at this thread, look at Jim's CNC locks, etc..

I don't think we can conclude that they greatly desired lighter barrels, for two reasons:

First, while I really don't want to get into the barrel steel debate again, I have to point out that the very little actual data - not assumptions but data -  on the comparative ductility and strength under shock impact of wrought iron and modern steels suggests that wrought iron is inferior to the 4140/50 steels used in modern gun barrels, roughly comparable to 1137, and definitely superior to cold-drawn 12L14, the most widely used material today. The caveat is that the 1137MOD used in gun barrels is presumably better than the 1137 for which I have data, being formulated for that purpose, and that the 11L14 used in barrels these days is at the least stress-relieved if not actually annealed, and thus possibly stronger under impact than the cold-drawn 12L14 tested. Ergo, it is likely that modern muzzleloading barrels are a bit stronger in real life than on paper. Also, I do not know how representative the wrought iron sample used is. Gun barrels were not generally made from poor grade iron, though - that was used for things like wagon wheels, architectural ironwork, or other non-demanding applications, I believe.

Despite those caveats, however, I think we can conclude that good quality wrought iron, far from being "rotten cheese" as I've seen it characterized, was a perfectly good material for the pressures involved, and any weaknesses were due to the possibility of slag inclusions or bad welds, not the material per se. This is is bolstered by the performance of mid-19th century rifle-musket barrels made of very high-end wrought iron welded with triphammers - I forget the particulars, but these barrels stood up to proof loads and destructive testing that put other barrels, including modern ones, to shame, giving rise to the myth that it was impossible to overload a muzzleloader.

In sum, while the consistency and lack of welds in modern steels are a definite advantage, the idea that period gunsmiths were forced to vastly overbuild their barrels to achieve safety is way overstated, I think.

The second reason is that I think that they preferred heavier barrels on rifles is because they could have easily have reduced weight or muzzle-heaviness if they desired, either by changing the barrel profile or shortening it, or both. One of the fascinating things about the development of the Kentucky rifle is that, at least on paper, the German rifles first brought here fit our ideas of a good field gun nearly exactly - fairly light, (I think), short and handy, good weight distribution, and with a stock design that kept felt recoil to a minimum. It is the 18th century version of Jeff Cooper's "scout rifle".....By the 1790s, at the end of 20 years of  warfare and survival along the trans-appalachian frontier, the longrifle had become long, with a pronounced barrel presence, cupped buttplates, and comb-lines nowhere near parallel to the bore. This basic design, with slight modifications, went on to be the workhorse of the Fur Trade for the next forty years or so, serving right alongside trade guns, shotguns, and European rifles with designs more closely suited to our modern ideas that could have been copied had people found the longrifle design wanting.

Had they wanted what people today want, I think that they would have kept the original German design, or developed something fairly close to it. That they didn't indicates that they had other ideas about what was required for a good rifle.

Ergo, barrel weight was a deliberate design choice.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2020, 10:43:37 PM »
Going back to the original topic, if we are compiling a wishlist I prefer that the barrels would would come without the vent liner installed, no notch for the front lock screw, and with a minimum of stamped markings - stamping work-hardens the steel, and while it is probably not a big issue the habit some makers have of covering the first 3-4 inches of the bottom flat with inventory information right where the pressure is greatest strikes me as sub-optimal.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline heinz

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2020, 04:25:18 PM »
Elnathan, nice presentation on barrel weights.   I concur that long heavy barrels were driven by what the market wanted.
kind regards, heinz

galudwig

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2020, 07:18:05 PM »
I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections.  I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles.  But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category.  Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre.  I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
 
   It's not about what was, it's about what people want today.   Al

A. makes a great point. To further that point, perhaps contrary to the way he meant it, much of it really is about what most people want today.

I don't think that Jim is looking to go into the custom barrel making business right now. Maybe someday he will be in a position to market his own line of barrels (he is a reformed metallurgist after all). For the immediate future though, I think he is going to concentrate on building barrels that make sense to current and future additions to his kit business. Many of the requests for unique barrel profiles and kit offerings are just that; unique to an individual builder or customer and not really marketable to a wider audience. There are barrel and gun makers out there who can fulfill those individual wishes. Who knows, once he is in control of all the components supporting his business, maybe Jim will return to his custom shop!  ;)

Right now, it really is about want most people want today. Translation in this case: much of it is about what will keep Jim in business. It will benefit current and future gunbuilders if he stays in business for a long time to come. Look at how he has innovated and expanded his business in four short years. Can't wait to see what other surprises he has in store for us.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2020, 08:44:03 PM »
Yeah, we'll be offering a line of barrels intended to be sold individually before too long.  I'd guess 6 months or so.  We have a good production set-up so it's not too much work to offer different profiles.  We'll cary a limited line of the most popular calibers / profiles and try to keep these stocked.  So, you'll get the benefits of 1137M material, Green Mountains excellent bores and superior exterior shaping and finishing by us.  We've been shipping a good number of our barrels with kits already and the reports we've receive from customers are very good.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline AsMs

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2020, 07:04:06 AM »
 Jim,

What would be the price on those barrels.

AsMs

lawrencea

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2020, 01:06:46 PM »
Hi Jim
I feel a little wrong in saying this as you are the expert.
I think perhaps you are missing a great opportunity.
CNC's biggest drawcard was great repeatability.
It is now my understanding (potentially very flawed) that with modern CNC programming it is easier than ever to make programming variations.

What if you were able to do mix and match swamped barrels?
For instance the breech and muzzle profile of say your SMR or Colonial but 2" longer or shorter?
What about the breech of the brass barrelled rifle but the muzzle of the Krupp?
The front and back would be set but the middle would be of variable length.
Perhaps as some vendors can supply a stock from a multitude of known examples. You could do the same for barrels.

This would be a step closer to the originals with essentially a customisable profile available to each buyer. Yes it would be at a premium and probably paid up front or at least a large  non refundable deposit. But you could offer custom profiles within reason of course.

Apologies for the ramble

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2020, 04:14:31 PM »
Simple question regarding the Colonial rifle. Is it available with a smooth bore barrel ?   If so, what would be the largest bore size ?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Swamped barrel profiles / calibers
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2020, 04:28:38 PM »
Simple question regarding the Colonial rifle. Is it available with a smooth bore barrel ?   If so, what would be the largest bore size ?

Yes, we currently can do smooth bore up to .58 caliber (24 guage).  It will be available in .62 caliber at sometime in the future (when I'm not certain).

Thanks,
Jim