Swamped barrel profiles / calibers

[Jim Kibler]

As mentioned in the other post, we'll be offering individual barrels for sale in time.  These will have Green Mountain bores and we'll be doing the rest.  Anything below .40 caliber we'll be rifling here as well.  So I'm just thinking ahead to possible designs and styles.  So a question...  What do you guys think the most popular profile / caliber combinations are?  My thoughts are to offer a number of these plus some profiles of our own design.  When all the dust settles, I can envision having at max 10-12 barrel offerings total.  We would work towards stocking these so there would be limited wait.  I don't think we'll be doing one-off custom work.

Thanks!
Jim

[AsMs]

Jim,

You can get the standard 38, 42, 44 from most barrel makers. Offer something different. If you do they will fly out the door as fast as you can make them.

After you get set and running with the rifle barrels maybe a line of smooth bore oct/rd.

Thanks

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
A 42" fowler barrel 20, 16, or 14 gauge with breech 1.18-1.25" wide.  Seventy percent of the taper to the muzzle completed within 12" of the breech.  Barrel octagon to round or all round.  In addition, a proper standing breech with hump and cross pin lug.

dave

[Scota4570]

The SMR in 45 cal has amazing balance.  If the  barrel were shortened to 40 or 42" is would make an awesome lightweight rifle for individuals' projects. 

Tapered lighter barrels are hard to find.  Most are big chunkie Hawken barrels.  Maybe a 15/16" that straight tapers to 13/16" say 36" long. 
 
GM pistol barrels in other than 45 caliber seem to be NOS when they can be found.  40 and 36 caliber pistol barrels would be great.   

[Telgan]

.60  cal in a 39 - 40 inch swamped  - 6 to 8 inch waist - less muzzle end flare than the old "early transitional " profile

[Elnathan]

Green Mountain bores...does that mean that they will be made from the same steel as GM's other muzzleloader barrels? If so that is interesting news. Edited to add: It appears that my question was answered on the other thread. Yes!

I'd like to see something like the Brass Barrel rifle (http://flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/BrassBarrelRifle.htm) albeit with perhaps a thicker waist. That is one profile that allows for a big breech for good early architecture while allowing sub-.50 calibers without excessive weight. I think that some later profiles with more subtle swamps than the norm would also be popular.

I probably a bit of an outlier, but I'd like at least the option of somewhat heavier barrels than the norm today - the trend seems to be to make them as light as possible, whereas the originals tend to have considerably more weight and barrel presence.

[Frank]

 Barrel for your SMR shortened to 42 inches.

[canadianml1]

Shorter barrels are readily available from several manufactures already. Fowlers and some rifles typically had barrels that were  longer than currently offered and some were quite thin even though made from wrought iron. Why not go longer to provide builders something not available from other suppliers with period correct lengths? Also, with the improved ductility of certified  AISI 1137 over 12L14 perhaps an engineered barrel could be made thinner to set apart your offering.  Just a thought.

Having done the soldering of lugs and sights on a fowler your plan to have integral lugs/sights will make your fowler kit a lot more attractive to beginners.

[flinchrocket]

.60  cal in a 39 - 40 inch swamped  - 6 to 8 inch waist - less muzzle end flare than the old "early transitional " profile

I would take one of these in 58cal. And a .920 muzzle.

[Pete G.]

B wt. .50 cal. 44"lg.

[Karl Kunkel]

50 cal for the SMR.

[elk killer]

13 inch swamped pistol barrels any caliber

[rsells]

Jim,
I use Rice's A weight Allen Town profile (45 inch length) when building a SMR for customers wanting .32 to .40 cal  rifles.  I use the B weight for .45 cal. and C weight for .50 and .54 cal rifles.  I like the profile a bunch because the height of the front sight when sighted in is more in line with what the original rifles I have on them.  I have used this profile on VA big bore rifles as well with good success.

I use a straight taper 1 1/8 breech measurement tapering to 1 inch at the muzzle 34 inches in length in .54 cal on the late Hawken 1/2 stock rifles I build.  I use the same profile but in 36 inch length when building a full stock Hawken.
                                                                                   Roger Sells 

[elkhorne]

Jim,
Thanks for the opportunity to throw out ideas! I waited on your 45 SMR before I bit the bullet because I live in a state that you can not hunt deer with anything less than 45 but can not hunt squirrel with anything larger than 36. My answer was a smooth bore in 50 with shot for squirrels and a patched round all for deer. It would be great to have available a rifled and smooth version of an oct to round in 50 or 54 (28 ga) in a Lehigh or Bucks county lightweight rifle smoothbore. Thanks again and good luck!
elkhorne

[R.J.Bruce]

Historically correct smoothbore barrels for Carolina trade guns, North West trade guns, Hudson Valley fowlers, and club butt fowlers. In the proper bore sizes, diameters, tapers, barrel wall thicknesses, and lengths. NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL SET UP.

[canadianml1]

RJB:

The average length of the St.Etienne Type D  French trade gun (Fusil de traite) barrel was 52 inches , some substantially longer. Mine has the one-size-fits-all barrel length of 42 inches. If we go to the trouble of trying to make things period correct I for one would like the barrel lengths to be period correct too. Just saying!

 

[thecapgunkid]

Jim;

Thanks for the initiative.  The last three rifles I built have been transitional/jaeger, and I found it hard to get .62 cal barrels or swamped barrels between 29 and 38 inches.  Shorter with larger bores.

[R.J.Bruce]

RJB:

The average length of the St.Etienne Type D  French trade gun (Fusil de traite) barrel was 52 inches , some substantially longer. Mine has the one-size-fits-all barrel length of 42 inches. If we go to the trouble of trying to make things period correct I for one would like the barrel lengths to be period correct too. Just saying!

 

There are only a couple of barrel maker's that will go past 48" long. For the most part they are back logged for years.

If Jim Kibler would add such HC fowler lengths/bore sizes/breech diameters/barrel wall thicknesses/octagon-round profiles/round profiles as I, yourself, and others are asking for into his inventory/CAD computer design program; then he would not necessarily have to keep them in stock for immediate sale/delivery.

My suggestion would be that the specific barrels for the various, and myriad, smoothbore civilian, military and quasi-military, fowlers and muskets that we would all like to recreate could be offered/fabricated on a semi-annual basis. The Kiblers could take orders for such custom offerings with a REFUNDABLE/NON-REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT of say $50.00 to discourage people from wasting their time. Deposit to be refundable up to say 90 days prior to the date of delivery. This would allow them time to order barrel steel, schedule time for fabrication/packing/shipping. After the 90 day mark,  NO REFUND OF THE DEPOSIT. Unless, of course, there was a serious mitigating reason, such as death, injury, or illness.

This would also allow them to gauge the interest in such offerings, and let them decide if it was sound business practice to offer such a service.

Most of the custom m-l barrel maker's seem to be in their '60's, '70's, and '80's. Bobby Hoyt, Charlie Burton, Howard Kelley, Ed Rayl. No one seems to be stepping up to take their place.

Same thing for The Rifle Shoppe. What an amazing resource!!!!
What an amazing PAIN IN THE A$$. One person orders, and gets their parts/kit in a single week. The next person orders,  and it takes 18 months for things to arrive. Many lock kits have sub-standard parts in them. The phone often goes unanswered.

What happens when the principals retire, or die? Seems like a perfect candidate for a modern CNC update.


I will be willing to take whatever Jim and Katherine can offer our community. We just need 20 more folks in their late '20's, early '30's to step in and bring CNC machining to other aspects of traditional muzzleloading   

[jrb]

for me the absolutely huge thing is you'll be using "gun barrel certified steel".
anything similar to what's usually listed as "type A, B, C , rifled swamped barrels is what seems logical to me, as the main focus. to me you would leave the  "leaded"  barrel makers in the past. goodbye to them.

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks so much for all of the suggestions.  These have given me some good ideas.  One thing I always have to consider is what we would sell the most of.  This will determine what the priorities will be.   We'll have some of the standards that have been offered for a long time and then offer some others as well.  The brass barreled rifle barrel is a GREAT profile.  We don't do many shows, but I'm looking forward to the CLA to show all the things we've been working on the last year.  I think the barrels will be well received.

All the best,
Jim

[ScottH]

Jim,
I would think that you will be offering rifles bores as small as .32.
How large of a rifled bore barrel do you think you will offer?
Larger than .58?
Thanks

[Jim Kibler]

Jim,
I would think that you will be offering rifles bores as small as .32.
How large of a rifled bore barrel do you think you will offer?
Larger than .58?
Thanks

Yes, we'll go down to .32.  We'll at least go up to .62.

Jim

[Frank]

You may want to offer the larger caliber barrels in a faster twist than other makers offer so it doesn’t take as large a charge to get good accuracy. I recall John Baird shooting some original 58 caliber Hawken rifles with a 1x48 twist and getting clover leaf groups at a 100 yards with fairly light charges. A lot of guys, me included don’t like taking a pounding shooting the 58 and 62 calibers. As I recall all the original Hawkins were a 1x48 twist.

[R.J.Bruce]

I can recall talking to Jason at Rice 6-8 months ago about the .66 caliber, Early Dutch Lancaster barrel. And, him telling me that he used the same drill/reamer for the .66 caliber barrels as he did for his 16 gauge smoothbore barrels. Which made them in actuality a .67 caliber barrel as the bore diameter was 0.672".

I believe that the brass barrel profile is very similar to the Rice EDL barrel. I would love to see a .66 caliber/1:48" twist brass barrel profile. I would purchase one in a hot minute for a Hans Jakob Honnager build.   

[hanshi]

As we age lightweight rifles tend to be of more importance for hunting.  A 42" swamped barrel in calibers from .32 to .62 make a good standard.  The SMRs with the 44" to 46" swamped will be perfect for up to .45.  Some prefer more weighty tubes and a heavy swamped or straight tubes of around 28" to 34" for jeagers or shorter half-stocks in .54 to .66 would fare well IMHO.  Small bores, .32 & .36, would make sweet handling squirrel rifles using a swamped 38" to 42" "A" weight barrels.