Author Topic: Tennessee Southern Rifle - Jacob Gross II (Read 6766 times)

AZshot · « **on:** June 28, 2020, 03:21:17 AM »

UPDATE 4th July, I'm sending pictures to Byrd.
UPDATE 11th July: Byrd reviewed and says he thinks it's a Jacob Gross II, early percussion rifle.

Hi, Can anyone help ID this rifle? Not that I know much, but I'm learning about mostly NC southern rifles. At first, I was excited about the "lollipop" tang, and the spur triggerguard facing forward, and the diamond lock screw washer. I thought "a Gillespie!" but after a day of researching, now I think it's a northeastern Tennessee rifle.

I didn't notice at first, but now do, that the tang isn't a lollipop, it is a "over comb" type. I see that is usually the extreme west of NC, or more likely TN. The wood is walnut, so that's southern. The brass buttstock seems a little atypical, but mostly the half stock and barrel rib are interesting to me. Very long barrel, looks small caliber. Could this be a Ambrose Lawing rifle? Or another known TN maker? It had a silver name plate in the barrel, but it's now gone.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2020, 09:40:35 AM »

That is one classey looking rifle! A true southern classic, at that. This is what comes to mind when I think of a southern mountain rifle. Wish I could suggest a possible maker but I sure can't. I bet there are people here who can give you a name though. Thank you for bringing it in to be admired.
Dick

Bob Roller · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2020, 03:43:13 PM »

WHO ever made it had a definite idea as to what he wanted and the ability to
bring it to reality.

Bob Roller

AZshot · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2020, 06:52:24 PM »

Thanks, I've been trying hard to ID it. It appears to have had a silver engraving plate on top of the barrel, now gone. I think the lock was replaced, but am not sure. It doesn't fit well in front. The brass buttplate seems unusual, not iron. Yet, I assume half stock or 3/4 stock rifles were pretty late, post 1850s? Maybe brass was more easily obtained by then, and was put on some rifles to be fancier? The two lines in the top of the buttplate look like some Lawing rifles, but anyone could have done that. I really like that it's 3/4 stock. To me, that is very unique and unsual.

I'm hoping Cades Cove, Dennis, or one of the other experts will weigh in.

Molly · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2020, 08:16:16 PM »

Yes, let's hear from the experts, of which I am NOT one but...just for fun.

1/2 stock not an Ambrose characteristic. More like W.W.

Brass also more like W.W.

Reverse curl on the guard rail...not "lawingish".

Is that a "rivet" or pin at the base of the butt plate attaching it to the toe plate? If so that is very "Ambroseish".

A "diamond" shaped lock screw washer "lawingish".

Silver name plate???

So who knows. Maybe more like NC.

..........."Just for fun"

MAS

AZshot · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2020, 09:05:59 PM »

Thanks for the discussion. I don't have it in hand, but I can add more pictures. The buttplate rivet may be what I'm seeing, may not be, I'm a novice on these. I don't know who W.W. is, Wendel Wilkie? But looking in the "A PRELIMINARY SURVEY OF HISTORIC PERIOD GUNMAKING IN TENNESSEE" I only see a WILLIAMS, WILLIAM 1828 TN ROANE 1850.

Is the spur of the trigger guard pointing forward a NC thing? I know that is what I see on Gillespie's. I would prefer this to be a NC rifle (I'm from there, my family from Mills River), but I thought the over the comb, long tang was just done in TN. Again...I know nothing!

You can see the barrel nameplate is gone, and the rear sight in one of the below. Some will enlarge if you click them.

Molly · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2020, 10:08:45 PM »

Take my comments as the most unreliable of any.

WW is William Wesley Lawing. (WW was more of a half stock maker.) And it does look like the butt plate is attached to the toe plate with a "fastener" of some sort. Cannot say I have seen that on any except Lawing. The reverse curl does appear on some TN makers but I think they are more early ones. John Bull and Elisha Bull both used it as did Elbert Bible and I seem to recall others yet those guards strike me as a little more refined. This one looks pretty stout. Still experts I know suggest the reverse curl is more frequent on southern NC and even SC rifles. Certainly the tang is more of a TN feature. Also, I note the squared off finial on the back of the trigger guard plate. Both Lawing's I have are rounded off. No similarities in the rear sites of mine to yours.

Suggested Reading: "Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy" Cove by David Byrd, "East TN Hog Rifles", also by David Byrd, "Notes on Southern Long Rifles" by Jerry Nobel and recently Randal Pierce's wonderfully illustrated book, "Kentucky Rifles of the Great Smoky Mountains".

Regardless of specifically who made it it is very nice IMO. And sometimes even though there are attributions we may still never know. Part of the fun of it.

AZshot · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2020, 10:20:41 PM »

Thanks Molly, I was thinking this morning that early American is the main thing I collect and use in my other life: antique brass lenses for daguerreotype or wetplate cameras. It's similar: very hard to find, difficult to determine information about the maker, and both rifles and these wooden cameras have aspects of decorative art. And both you shoot! I am excited to handle this rifle when it comes.

AZshot · « **Reply #8 on:** June 29, 2020, 03:38:54 AM »

Ordered "Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy". Will go for one of the others soon. Books are expensive as guns. Well....not quite.

Sequatchie Rifle · « **Reply #9 on:** June 29, 2020, 05:59:46 AM »

I don’t see anything that would lead me in the direction of the Lawings. It and pretty generic East Tennessee style rifle and a lot of gunsmiths made that style. The triggerguard is somewhat distinct.

AZshot · « **Reply #10 on:** June 29, 2020, 04:00:05 PM »

Thanks for the information, I realize there is a lot to learn about longrifles, being hand made and all. A lot different than factory made guns from the late 19th century (Colts and such) that have fairly standard features that can be traced.

AZshot · « **Reply #11 on:** June 29, 2020, 11:30:03 PM »

Since I'm learning, here is what I'm hearing about it's features, correct me if I'm wrong:

This is a Halfstock. Also made by many other Eastern TN and Western NC gunsmiths.
This has no line on the cheekpiece. Eastern TN and Western NC rifles by other makers usually have them, some don't.
Triggers are not Lawing or Gillespie type.
Trigger guard is unusual for TN, sometimes seen with forward pointing spur instead of closed loop. This one is strange, it is brass veneer over heavy iron, need to find a comparison to possibly ID the rifle. UPDATE: Sullivan Co. TN
Brass buttplate, it seems to have a rivet to hold the toe on.
Very long tang, with a lollipop screw pad, then an extension that goes over the comb ending a few inches along the top line. I'm told this is iconic of Upper Eastern TN rifles. But one person said he's seen Gillespies (NC) with that too. An important question is: is the over comb tang made by just a handfull of makers, or dozens? Does it form a "school" and if so, what counties? UPDATE: Sullivan Co. TN
Walnut stock.

Things that need more investigation, the rear sight (buckhorn with notch, and decorative ridges in front of it), round head tang screws (not flush), thimbles and rod entry treatment. I'll post more pics when I get it in hand.

Molly · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2020, 04:05:30 AM »

Well, in case I never said it I LIKE IT! The condition looks pretty good...good enough to shoot? I never was a fan of shooting an "old gun" but have since found that seeing one smoke up the range after a 100 to 150 years or more is a pretty neat tribute to the gun and the man who made it.

AZshot · « **Reply #13 on:** July 01, 2020, 02:36:07 AM »

Thanks Molly. I'll decide after looking at the nipple and trying the lock. I may try a loos fitting ball and low powder charge, just a few times.

mountainman70 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 01, 2020, 03:12:02 AM »

Ya never know what these old fellers can teach us about shootin. I have built several using original barrels, and all have amazed me how accurate they still are, even if the bore is dark. I have one in 38 cal shoots a 357 or so rb, denim patch, makes one hole group off bench at 50 yds, when I can see the fine sights. Sight shades help.
I'm with Molly, aint nothin like makin an old timer smoke up the range again after a looooooooooong sleep. It is indeed a tribute to the builder. Best regards, Dave F

Fine looking rifle ya got there. Somethin majical about these ol Southern guns. Maybe cuz I be a Southern boy me self. Dave

AZshot · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2020, 10:57:48 PM »

Received it. Some things I didn't notice until it's in hand. The triggerguard, toeplate, nosecap and lockplate screw washer all look like, but are not, brass. Is there some technique that would give them an old, gold or brass color on the wear edges, but a magnet sticks to it?

AZshot · « **Reply #16 on:** July 02, 2020, 10:59:41 PM »

The wood is very nice.

AZshot · « **Reply #17 on:** July 02, 2020, 11:14:29 PM »

Cheekpiece and tang

AZshot · « **Reply #18 on:** July 02, 2020, 11:19:49 PM »

And the markings. The place that I assume had a silver plate looks pretty shallow to hold one. Is this what it would look like if a plate fell out?

There are three "sun" or "star" marks stamped on the top of the barrel. Behind the rear sight, then on both sides of the "nameplate" rectangle. The rear sight is interesting, with a lot of cutouts. Front is silver.

Molly · « **Reply #19 on:** July 03, 2020, 06:13:14 AM »

REALLY NICE. I think anyone interested in Southern works would be pleased to have this. I'll bet many here wishing THEY were the owner. I'll look it over and offer a few more comments via PM. I have passed up an attributed southern rifle at $3500 and this one is every bit as nice IMO except that it is a 1/2 stock...I like full stocks and the deal sweetens with a patch box.

So you say it's just a run of the mill SMR...and I'll say there is no run of the mill SMR. If they are truly southern they are special. Bless those mountain makers of the southern style!

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #20 on:** July 03, 2020, 03:12:38 PM »

I would think that rear sight would be a defining characteristic.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2020, 05:56:26 PM »

I would not be surprised if that rifle was built as a full stock. Just does not look like an original half stock. Lots of these rifles were changed to half or 3/4 stocks after the forearm got broken in a fall etc.
Dennis

AZshot · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2020, 06:29:22 PM »

Thanks all, and Dennis, I bet you're right. The under rib is attached with at least one dovetail, but I see some other things that look like rivets. One thing is for sure, the sucker is heavy, probably at least 10 lbs (my scale is kaput). The barrel is not swamped, but is slightly tapered.

Anyone know why the trigger guard and even the lock screw washer have that yellow look to them? They are not brass, a magnet sticks to them.

Levy · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2020, 06:40:10 PM »

I think that old grease and oil and a lack of handling tend to make things look a bit yellow sometimes. James Levy

mountainman70 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 03, 2020, 11:52:43 PM »

Might could have been oiled with linseed oil which sometimes dries yellow lookin,especially old. Nice rifle. Dave

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Author Topic: Tennessee Southern Rifle - Jacob Gross II (Read 6766 times)