Tennessee Southern Rifle - Jacob Gross II

[wormey]

I`m with Dennis on this one.  I would bet the farm it was originally full stock with what appears to be the original nose cap moved back.
 Really nice piece.  Wormey

[AZshot]

Thanks all, I was a little rash buying it, and didn't do much price research, just pulled the trigger.  May be married to in for a while. 

[dogbest]

It's a very nice gun that I'd be proud to own.

[DGB]

I'm with mountainman,

I once had  an unmentionable lever gun that showed a yellowish tint. A close look with optivisor revealed the brush strokes of varnish or whatever..this was supposedly a common method of preserving the metal from rust etc.

Regards,
Dave

[mountainman70]

Thanks all, I was a little rash buying it, and didn't do much price research, just pulled the trigger.  May be married to in for a while.

Hahahah. My First experience at bein married wasn't near this good, AZ. lol. Better be glad it don't need feedin,unlless,of course, you take him shootin. Nice find. Enjoy it. Dave F

[AZshot]

SUCCESS.  This morning I found a clue in the Dave Byrd book that Molly recommended I buy.  It just caught my eye, one rifle in the very back, with a trigger guard of "brass veneer overlaid on iron..."  It also had a "forged brass butt plate".  I called Dave Byrd and had a nice talk.  He said that the brass over iron was a technique they knew how to do in Unicoi County (and implied the maker was who I was thinking).  Then I told him about the rear sight having decorative cuttouts.  He said "I call those notches...that is how Alfred Duncan made them."  He also said it was probably cut down later.  Dennis and others were right. So Alfred Duncan (bother of Rice Duncan) died in 1850-1854, the rifle is a lot earlier than I was thinking the past few days. 

He wants me to send pictures to confirm.  But I'm excited.  Thanks to all for the help IDing this. 

UPDATE: I sent pictures to Dave Byrd.  He called me and to his best estimation, it's made by Jacob Gross "the second" and is an early percussion.  Still Sullivan county, just not by Alfred Duncan.  He said he's still looking at the pictures, and that's what he thinks at this time.

[Dennis Glazener]

SUCCESS.  This morning I found a clue in the Dave Byrd book that Molly recommended I buy.  It just caught my eye, one rifle in the very back, with a trigger guard of "brass veneer overlaid on iron..."  It also had a "forged brass butt plate".  I called Dave Byrd and had a nice talk.  He said that the brass over iron was a technique they knew how to do in Unicoi County (and implied the maker was who I was thinking).  Then I told him about the rear sight having decorative cuttouts.  He said "I call those notches...that is how Alfred Duncan made them."  He also said it was probably cut down later.  Dennis and others were right. So Alfred Duncan (bother of Rice Duncan) died in 1850-1854, the rifle is a lot earlier than I was thinking the past few days. 

He wants me to send pictures to confirm.  But I'm excited.  Thanks to all for the help IDing this.

Tell Dave hello for me, we share the same 4th GGF, David Baker,  a Rev War veteran from Bedford Couhty VA who later moved to present day Mitchell County NC. Bakersville NC was named for him.

You can trust what David tells you about SMR's especially those from East TN
Dennis

[Molly]

Darn!  A firm conclusion should have taken much longer!

But that's really good to discover and yes Mr. Byrd is a super guy.  Sure wish he would turn lose of a few that I'll bet he has.

[AZshot]

Dennis, we did talk about your hunch and he did say you were a good guy which I already knew!  Molly, I think I got lucky on this ID, but if you hadn't pushed me, I would have stopped researching, maybe not bought that book by Dave, not noticed the fine print that solved it, not called him. He sure seemed to be a wellspring of information on TN rifles, said he started buying them when he was 18.

[scottmc]

Another possibility is that the steel was clad in brass.  I think I remember reading that in either Jerry noble's books or David Byrds that some would coat the steel with brass.  Seems like a lot of work for no benefit, though.

[AZshot]

Yes, I mentioned above that I found that brass veneer over iron trigger guard mentioned in Byrd's book, and that led me to identifying the rifle.
I've talked to both Randal Pierce and Dave Byrd and they both say the brass overlay on iron was a technique only used by a few TN gunsmiths in Sullivan county and possibly Unicoi county only.  Pierce said it is pretty much a "forgotten" technique that took a lot of metallurgical knowledge.  He said it was done late in the period, "no earlier than 1850." Alfred Duncan died between 1851-1854 in Sullivan Co., TN.
Byrd said that he "has 3-4 rifles from here right now that have brass over iron guards and small parts."

[AZshot]

I found this article about Alfred Duncan rifles (and other Smokey Mountain gunmaking) in a 1915 Recreation, and made a PDF:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15lxIxr_An5zmr-vYvt06a06B--qWPJfg/view?usp=sharing


From the article, this is what is called the Famous Armstrong rifle, the article (and one other ref) says "Alfred Duncan received $100 in gold for making the Armstrong gun, in the year 1828. D. Armstrong of Knoxville presented the gun to his son, Marcellus Murat Armstrong, when it was completed...guns original length was over 6 feet and weighted 36lbs...(later cut down)" It mentioned having "...silver plate appears on the barrel also."

Another Alfred Duncan is in Foxfire 5:


Another from the same family is in Winston-Salem, NC. "Family tradition holds that George Rice learned the gun trade from his brother Alfred.  A recent reassessment of the [Rice Duncan] gun by the Museum of Early Southern Decorative Art’s gunsmith, Bill Bailey, reveals that the gun was made sometime between the 1820s-1830s.  If the gun is dated closer to the 1830s there is a strong possibility that Rice, George and Alfred’s father, or George Rice could have made the weapon. In either case this research has revealed the distinct possibility that the gun making trade may have been a family tradition."

Rice Duncan’s Long Rifle: A Study of the East Tennessee Long Rifle Tradition - Jessi White
http://libjournal.uncg.edu/jbc/article/download/923/578

[Dennis Glazener]

I knew of the brass plated/veneer hardware but never heard how it was done by these gunmakers. Seems like it would have to have been fairly easy for them to do it or it would have been too expensive to do on these old mountain rifles.
Dennis

[louieparker]

Dennis  there could certainly be a plating process that I am unaware of.. But the one I know of was sheet brass formed over the forged iron guard and riveted in place and also soldered.. I say soldered because I once replaced the brass on the front extension of a Gross  guard.. That rifle had overlay only on front and rear extensions.
 Alfred Gross was a master at this.. If you enlarge the attached photos you will see the rivets....LP

[Molly]

Seems this ordinary "old gun" is transforming into a interesting SMR with unique features not normally found and by a maker one might call a "master gun builder" of the day.  Now, get into more aspects of the story.  As you look at Mr. Byrd's book you will notice that the "silver" inlay on the barrel is a rather common feature but it seems that it not only has the makers name but also used when two makers built a gun and/or when the maker's name as well as the name of the individual for whom it was made was on the inlay.

So for more fun, were there two makers?  AND/OR was the original owners named?

[mountainman70]

Hmmmmmmm. Molly stirrin up more head scritchin!!! This is getting very interesting. Have a goodun y'all. Dave F

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis  there could certainly be a plating process that I am unaware of.. But the one I know of was sheet brass formed over the forged iron guard and riveted in place and also soldered.. I say soldered because I once replaced the brass on the front extension of a Gross  guard.. That rifle had overlay only on front and rear extensions.
 Alfred Gross was a master at this.. If you enlarge the attached photos you will see the rivets....LP

Thanks Louie, I thought I had heard Dave Byrd tell me they were overlaid but I just could not get that clear in my minds eye. Can see and understand from your photos.
Thanks
Dennis

[Panzerschwein]

I found this article about Alfred Duncan rifles (and other Smokey Mountain gunmaking) in a 1915 Recreation, and made a PDF:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15lxIxr_An5zmr-vYvt06a06B--qWPJfg/view?usp=sharing


From the article, this is what is called the Famous Armstrong rifle, the article (and one other ref) says "Alfred Duncan received $100 in gold for making the Armstrong gun, in the year 1828. D. Armstrong of Knoxville presented the gun to his son, Marcellus Murat Armstrong, when it was completed...guns original length was over 6 feet and weighted 36lbs...(later cut down)" It mentioned having "...silver plate appears on the barrel also."

Another Alfred Duncan is in Foxfire 5:


Another from the same family is in Winston-Salem, NC. "Family tradition holds that George Rice learned the gun trade from his brother Alfred.  A recent reassessment of the [Rice Duncan] gun by the Museum of Early Southern Decorative Art’s gunsmith, Bill Bailey, reveals that the gun was made sometime between the 1820s-1830s.  If the gun is dated closer to the 1830s there is a strong possibility that Rice, George and Alfred’s father, or George Rice could have made the weapon. In either case this research has revealed the distinct possibility that the gun making trade may have been a family tradition."

Rice Duncan’s Long Rifle: A Study of the East Tennessee Long Rifle Tradition - Jessi White
http://libjournal.uncg.edu/jbc/article/download/923/578

Call me nuts but that rifle in the first photo appears to have a wiping stick, with either a bit of rag or tow on the end sticking out of the muzzle or the ramrod pipes.

[shortbarrel]

 I think Molly said it all.

[AZshot]

Well, I have an update, as you may have noticed from the title of this thread.  Dave Byrd called, he got my pictures of the rifle.  He said to the best of his knowledge, at this point (said he wants to study the pics some more) he says it's a Jacob Gross II rifle.  An early percussion one, he says.  So my Duncan guess was not right, but I think he learned from Gross, or at least they were all Sullivan Co.