Author Topic: Gideon Angstadt  (Read 2400 times)

Offline DaveM

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2020, 06:09:43 PM »
Buck and Eric - Here is a detail for the rear pipe carving of what I would consider the middle age / period of the three rifles from our friend's collection.  Slightly different than the one you posted, but similar design.  The one shown here is almost identical to the rear pipe carving of another of the three ("Adam"?) carved rifles in that collection.  The rifle in this photo I would consider in between the age of the other two.  This pictured one, and the earlier one, had a bulge in the stock at the rear pipe - the later one did not, and the later one had a slightly smaller buttstock.

As for the Beck, I do not know anything about that one at all, other than that photo that was shared with me.





upload pic

Offline DaveM

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 10:38:06 PM »
A few more detail photos for rifle above.  An additional feature that may link the Adam made rifles is that it appears that only the Adam Angstadt rifles have the patchbox release on the top of the buttplate and not the end of bottom.  I'm searching for photos but have not yet found another Angstadt maker who did this.






« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:22:48 PM by DaveM »

Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2020, 09:41:01 AM »
Dave,

Ill check the photos that I have in regards to the PB release.

Buck

Online Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2020, 02:54:07 PM »
I have seen two Peter rifles with it on top, but the majority of his are down in the toe plate.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2020, 03:24:52 PM »
I have no opinions on who made what, but these Angstadts made some of the most folky interesting rifles ever. They are a delight to look at.
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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2020, 05:57:34 PM »
I totally agree with you Mike!  I am almost hypnotized at the shapes of buttstocks, patch boxes, and inlays.  So NOT what youd expect.  Very cool.
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Online Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2020, 06:56:31 PM »
Robert Weil and I have discussed these guys for years.  I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!

Personally, when I think of genuinely American 'Kentucky rifle' work, these are the guys I think about.  These pieces are as about as American, PA German, folk art, whatever you want to call it, as it gets.  And it all WORKS! (artistically and aesthetically)
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Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2020, 04:32:02 AM »
Eric,

When I first started collecting Jerry Nobel stated that a true example of a Kentucky rifle is any rifle built by Joseph or Peter Angstadt. Due to the misrepresentation of Adam, i.e the AA or A Angstadt rifles being attributed to him in lieu of Abraham, I believe Jerry overlooks them due to the Berks County architecture that his rifles display. It would appear that Abraham learned his trade outside of the family circle in Reading or somewhere in Berks County. Then there's the proposed Boyer connection with him - discussion for another thread/ post. where's the Gideon A. signed rifles at?!?

Your statement above is exactly my sentiment - Angstadt rifles are the quintessential example of (PA) Kentucky Rifles. The high end builders are prominent, but typically repetitive in design and decor. When I'm walking the floor at a show I admire the high end builders, but when I look at an Angstadt I have to handle it because there's always something different going on. My interest is immediately sparked and full throttle. Just something about them.

Dave - regarding the carving at the rear entry pipe - the 2 early rifles are exactly as you describe with the (bulge) around the rear pipe.

I'm still trying to get the green light to post the pictures.

My Joseph Rifle has the release at the toe, my Peter is actually on the butt plate as is my Abraham swivel. But like Dave says the early Adam / Joseph collaborations and solo works appear to favor the heel extension for the release.

Buck

Offline DaveM

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2020, 05:30:00 AM »
I 100% agree with everything you all say.  Took me a number of years of studying other makers to finally truly appreciate these ! Hypnotizing, as noted.

Offline Robby

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2020, 03:24:48 PM »
  I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!


Maybe they made whiskey with their infested rye and got a twofer! His
Robby
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Online Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2020, 11:35:05 PM »
  I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!


Maybe they made whiskey with their infested rye and got a twofer! His
Robby

I feel fairly positive that this exactly was the case.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2020, 02:54:13 AM »
Eric - I communicated with our friend today. And I quote" I examined a signed Gideon Angstadt 30-40 years ago, I remember being very impressed because none of us had ever seen one before." He confirmed that with one of his travelling companions who recalled the same event. Where is it?!?

The key to the Adam connection:






                                         Early Adam



                                   
                                           Mid Adam





                                 Early Joseph - not Adam




                              Mid Adam - different angle

Buck
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 11:33:37 PM by Buck »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2020, 03:02:16 PM »
Thanks for those pics Buck, I don't think  have ever seen them before.
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2020, 11:27:09 PM »
Mike - my pleasure, I had to clarify and make a correction.

Buck

Offline DaveM

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2020, 12:21:06 AM »
thanks for the pictures Buck - the Angstadts and their rifles deserve a quality book with high quality photos, or at least a quality article.

Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2020, 02:19:16 AM »
Dave,

I agree, they are an interesting group of builders. I would opine dynastic, and their contribution to American arms is overlooked.

Buck
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 10:33:38 AM by Buck »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2020, 04:27:25 PM »
Dave,

I agree, they are an interesting group of builders. I would opine dynastic, and their contribution to American arms is overlooked.

Buck
I agree. A contemporary builder could explore and work inside this school for a life time.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Online Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2020, 05:40:16 PM »
This thread really diverged a bit from Gideon Angstadt.  Getting back to him for a moment:  Buck, that appears to be the 'story' on Gideon Angstadt.  I also have spoken to maybe two or three older guys over the years who claimed to have seen a signed Gideon Angstadt "way back when" but unfortunately one never seems to materialize.  One of the old books, I forget which, offered a very brief description of a gun under the Gideon Angstadt listing, so I would assume that the author was looking at a signed gun.  It's obvious the guy was a gunsmith in Lewisburg.  It's very possible we have seen some of his rifles and not known it.  Where I am taking issue here is that there seem to be a whole lot of pieces attributed to Gideon Angstadt, but there are vast discrepancies among them - different stock architecture, different furnishings, different everything.  So WHICH might actually be Gideon, and which might be someone else?  Impossible to say without a signed example to use as an anchor point!!!!!!!  Aaaack it drives me nuts.

As a caveat, I want to make clear I do not simply ignore when one of the older dudes (I'm trying hard not to become an older dude myself) tells me about something he may have seen years ago.  Times were different, many pieces had not yet disappeared into the black hole of gun safes, sequestered away for half a century or more.  Dillin's book is a great resource because despite the tiny, grainy little photos, there are a number of very interesting pieces therein that STILL have not popped back onto the public scene.  And that's about a century now.  Rich Hujsa used to visit me up here once or twice a year for show-and-tell because he was hunting out of a friends cabin nearby, and we used to discuss Johannes Moll quite a bit because Moll is an obsession of mine.  Rich always said he had seen "years ago" a rifle with huge block letters signed JOHANNES MOLL but of course nobody else had seen one since.  I never knew whether to take it at face value or not, but then hot d**m probably around 15 years ago, some guy out of nowhere contacts me about a rifle he inherited, and while it was a more modern restock of old parts, there's the giant JOHANNES MOLL signature inlaid down the entire top of the barrel from breech to rear sight in silver block letters.  And I've since seen a second restock with the same barrel marking! 

Something to think about here, Kindig may have been on to something when he called the two rifles in there 'early Molls' that are probably Adam Angstadt.  Moll was practically on top of the Angstadt farm in Berks county at least as early as 1750-1752, and was there until his move to Allentown.  Adam had to learn from someone, and since there is absolutely no evidence that farmer George Angstadt was a gunsmith, it's very likely that Moll was the guy the old history books are remembering when they say George Angstadt had a gunsmith shop there very early on.  So potentially, Adam Angstadt may have been Moll's apprentice.  It's very interesting that a number of the rifles attributed to him (Adam) have somewhat of a three-petal or fleudelis shaped box finial, exactly as Moll apparently was casting when he moved to Allentown.
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Offline Buck

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Re: Gideon Angstadt
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2020, 03:01:34 AM »
Eric,

Weve brought to light more about Adam than Gideon. Was a good thread, well chat more on the flip side.

Buck
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 04:39:30 AM by Buck »