Author Topic: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB  (Read 3253 times)

Offline Majorjoel

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Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« on: July 12, 2020, 09:04:44 PM »
I do not have a clue as to why this rifle is attributed to Samuel Hawken but thought it would generate some interest here.  https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872664457

I do not have anything to do with this piece or this seller.  Just my disclaimer  :)
Joel Hall

Offline Roger B

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 09:51:20 PM »
I'd need to something in writing from Baird or Dawson before I accepted it as a Hawken product. Even if it is, i personally wouldn't give North of $14K for it.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 10:23:06 PM »
An asking price that high would require an attribution to somebody, anybody.

Firearm attributions, are often opinions, based on perceived characteristics, that could apply to a number of different firearms.

A very experienced collector once advised me to "never buy anything that you have to explain".
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 10:27:37 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 11:04:46 PM »
"never buy anything that you have to explain".

That is good advice.. Even if only trying to convince yourself.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 11:10:18 PM »
I certainly don't claim to know anything as much as the two esteemed attritutors presented here, but I'd say if it was a Hawken rifle, it would say so on the top of the barrel, like all of their collective rifles.  I would concede though that it may be a St. Louis rifle from the same era...there was a heap of competition from a myriad of gunsmiths during the western expansion and its supply.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline DGB

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 11:12:42 PM »
  I have  a half stock rifle with the EXACT same patch box. My rifle is signed (stamped)  " J.Haberstro  Buffalo NY.
The GB photo looks precisely the same as mine, no kidding,unreal..
Lock looks like mine also, but perhaps slightly different

Regards,
Dave B

Offline DGB

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 11:36:12 PM »
 Dave here again...
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
The GB rifle is stamped in the same location but is not readable in the photo.

Regards,
DGB

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 11:42:20 PM »
Note the tag is NOT in the handwriting of either author who the tag writer claims made the attribution. There is NO letter with this rifle from either author, only a tag written by some unknown person claiming the two authors attributed the rifle...with no verification that such an attribution was ever made by them. I bet the two well-known authors might be less than happy if they knew their names were attached to a tag on this "Hawken" rifle.  Shelby Gallien

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 11:51:01 PM »
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
Regards,
DGB

I believe that "Haberstro" can be attributed to Old Norse for "Hawken". Looks like you've hit the jackpot Dave! ;)
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 12:09:41 AM »
I noticed this gun about the time it was posted. I have Bairds books, and I am with all y'all. I dont believe it is what is represented to be. I am a long ways from expert,but it just aint right for some reason. Nice a gun as it is, I would think it would have been stamped Hawken,if they ,or some of their hands, did the work.
To be fair, no telling how many such guns  passed thru Jake and Sams shop and were refit.Still, I would be extremely careful about buying it.
Where is Don Stith when we need him? Dave F 8) 8)

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 12:30:14 AM »
Haberstro was a New York maker

Offline snapper

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 02:18:09 AM »
Well with the starting bid at $8950 I doubt that we will see it sell for 2K.

Fleener
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 04:58:31 AM »
In cases like this I often wonder if the current owner/seller is not very knowledgeable and was misled.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 05:07:58 AM »
In cases like this I often wonder if the current owner/seller is not very knowledgeable and was misled.

Wonder how many times this sort of transaction happens on the same gun over the years?

Undocumented attribution is like hearsay evidence and inadmissible as proof amongst astute collectors.  Wait hold the phone-says in the description a copy of the Baird study is included-I reckon that's certified enough for some folks.

But didn't we see a marked fake go for authentic money a little while back?  And never heard of any backlash from the buyer-as one might expect if the new owner wasn't pleased with his/her purchase.

Unless it was kept quiet as part of a resolution (if there was any).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 05:30:17 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 05:22:36 AM »
Looks like it was sprayed with shellac.  Is that a crack visible on one side of the wrist? Maybe it's grain the finish didn't fill?  I'm not trying to devalue the gun, just asking the experts here.


« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 06:18:17 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 01:50:53 PM »
The rifle is NOT Hawken built.  The rifle was made in the northeast.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 02:37:32 PM »
Dave here again...
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
The GB rifle is stamped in the same location but is not readable in the photo.

Regards,
DGB

Settled.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline JTR

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 06:15:45 PM »
From the description on Gunbroker.

"The John Baird study is included with the purchase of the rifle. I have received a couple of comments that it is either a New York gunsmith rifle or a New England rifle. The Baird study of this particular rifle is included, it also states that it may have been produced in Ohio prior to the move to Mo. If you purchase the rifle and are unsatisfied with the included documentation furnished will refund your money including shipping provided the gun is in as shipped condition."

It doesn't look like the guy is trying to pull a fast one. 
John Robbins

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 06:41:53 PM »
No matter how many naysayers we can count, as always it only takes two bidders to make an auction interesting, and two to make the final trade.

Hold to the Wind

Offline louieparker

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2020, 07:02:48 PM »
AS Wade says,  it only takes two bidders.  I would like to think no one would believe this gun to be by Hawken.. But I wouldn't bet the farm on that.. I have seen things sell before that I couldn't believe .. I think some fellows get involved in winning the bid war more than  buying the gun...LP

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2020, 03:56:04 AM »
The rifle is NOT Hawken built.  The rifle was made in the northeast.

PLease tell us how you KNOW this?
Dennus
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2020, 05:06:11 AM »
Dennis, my buddy DGB has a gun by same hand, signed, identical patchbox, similar architecture. See above. Maker is known.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2020, 05:06:35 PM »
Rich,
Yes I read all the posts and I have no idea if the rifle is what the owner says it is. Presumably he based his thoughts on the written Baird report that none of us have read. The owner has enough confidence in that report to offer a money back guarantee which in my mind means he believes Baird believes it has ties to a Hawken builder.

I have no doubt your friends rifle is a signed rifle with some exact and some similiar traits to the one at auction. Builders today quite often make copies of other builders work I would assume this was also done in earlier years. In fact I have seen in my Gillespie family at least two rifles that have traits copied from their contemporaries. Just curious how someone would positively know that an unsigned rifle was made in a certain area of the country.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2020, 06:28:23 PM »
Dennis, I guess that sort of thing happened but if prevalent, all attributions of unsigned rifles just took a major hit. Sam Hawken, before relocating to St.Louis, had his own style.

Old undocumented attributions from 40 years ago may need re-examination given all that has come to light since then.

Occam’s razor and all.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2020, 02:58:09 AM »
Here is one on Guns International with a letter from Baird:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-1500-1850/samuel-hawken-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101469758

Interesting rifle I remember seeing this one on GI I think back in 2015 or 2016 and it was stated it sold for $109,000 or so if I recall.
Rob