Author Topic: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB  (Read 3242 times)

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2020, 03:08:23 AM »
Back in the late 70's I was at a gun show in upstate NY and walking through the show I was draw to a rifle on a stand on one of the benches. The tag said St Louis Hawken but looking over the rifle I clearly saw a Dimick stamp. I don't remember what the price was on it. The Hawken crazy was still fairly hot then and I wasn't well versed in those rifles then but knew enough to know it wasn't a Hawken..
Rob

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2020, 11:21:38 PM »
I don't know if the rifle on Gunbroker is a Hawken or not.  I'll leave that to the experts.  However, I was struck by its similarity to a rifle that is marked J&S Hawken, which was shown on the Ambrose Antiques site as well as Cowan's auction site in 2017.  Here are a couple of photos from Ambrose, which I saved in June, 2017:



View of the lock.  Note the acute angle in the lockplate just ahead of the bolster.  Also the brass scroll triggerguard, and single trigger.



Full-length view of the off side.  This rifle was described as having a walnut stock and a 34", .50 caliber barrel.  The same rifle was on the Cowan's auction website starting in February, 2017.  While Ambrose Antiques took down the page with this listing, you can still view the rifle on the Cowan's website:  J&S Hawken Fullstock

Interestingly, Cowan's said the rifle is .41 caliber, and "Property of N. Flayderman & Co."  Ambrose said the rifle had "impeccable provenance," but did not share any details.  Anyway, here are a couple of views from Cowan's website, that were not shown by Ambrose:



The tang is short.  You can also see the J & S HAWKEN stamp on the top flat.  The Ambrose/Cowan's rifle has a hooded front sight:



For comparison, here are a few images of the Gunbroker rifle, described as .45 caliber and 55-1/4" OAL.  I'm guessing about a 40" barrel, described as a "Full octagon, heavy barrel."  In this close-up of the lock and breech, note the same acute angle in the lockplate, as on the Ambrose/Cowan's rifle.  The triggerguard is different, although it does have a scroll and it is made of brass, so it is superficially similar to the guard on the other rifle.
 


This photo shows part of the cheekpiece.  Note how the incised lines are not parallel, like on the other rifle:



So, there are some differences.  The sideplates are different, one rifle has a patchbox and the other has a hooded front sight.  However, my general impression of these two rifles is that the stock architecture is very similar, with the wrist looking too thick in the vertical dimension.  Both have deeply curved buttplates, brass scroll guards, single triggers, and heavy octagonal barrels in rather modest calibers for Hawkens.  I won't get into the debate over whether either or both rifles are genuine Hawkens, but I would consider the possibility that they were both made by the same builder.

Offered for your consideration.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2020, 12:20:30 AM »
27 hours to the gavel.

But for the 15 minute rule-which I like, but won't affect my bidding on this item.  ;D

no bids yet.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2020, 01:27:56 AM »
27 hours to the gavel.

But for the 15 minute rule-which I like, but won't affect my bidding on this item.  ;D

no bids yet.
You puttin a mortgage on the farm Wade?
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2020, 04:55:37 PM »
27 hours to the gavel. ...won't affect my bidding on this item.  ;D

You puttin a mortgage on the farm Wade?
Far from it. I have no number to flash at the auctioneer when the smoke clears. 
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Offline cshirsch

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2020, 08:41:25 PM »
I feel bad for anyone bidding on the so called 'Hawken' rifle.  Bad situation.

Offline lexington1

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2020, 07:45:50 PM »
Darn, I forgot to bid on it.... ;D

Offline redheart

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2020, 07:52:43 PM »
I feel bad for anyone bidding on the so called 'Hawken' rifle.  Bad situation.
You're not looking at the bright side. For just under 10 grand at the very least you might end up with a rare Haberstro :o ;D ::)!

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2020, 01:19:37 AM »
Darn, I forgot to bid on it.... ;D

No worries.

Everyone forgot to bid on it. 

So for the convenience of all, it was relisted. 6 days to go!
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Online Daniel Coats

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2020, 03:32:11 AM »
Here's a link to another Haberstro rifle with lots of pictures, I'll post a couple of them. Rifle sold at auction in 2018.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/60653226_signed-j-haberstro-rifle-with-an-eagle-around-a










Dan

"Ain't no nipples on a man's rifle"

Offline redheart

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2020, 05:47:13 PM »
Wow Daniel, that's a darn fine rifle!

Offline redheart

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2020, 06:16:01 PM »
Here's a link to another Haberstro rifle with lots of pictures, I'll post a couple of them. Rifle sold at auction in 2018.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/60653226_signed-j-haberstro-rifle-with-an-eagle-around-a










Does this Haberstro rifle look like it has faux striping? ??? :-\ :o

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2020, 07:44:10 PM »
If it is phony striping, it's the best job I've seen. I'd say no. Looks real to me, especially under the patch box and cheek piece & wrist, well, all over.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline redheart

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 07:22:38 PM »
Thanks Daryl, Most of it looks real to me also , but I thought they might have filled in some of the striping. :o

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2020, 09:16:21 PM »
OK folks, this is the last time I will post about this rifle.  Look at the top rifle in this auction and read the description.
https://www.icollector.com/Seven-Antique-Long-Guns-A-Golcher-Marked-Half-Stock-Percussion-Rifle-B-Unmarked-Flobert-Single-S_i9513794   

Offline moseswhite

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2020, 06:54:11 PM »
I have inspected this rifle thoroughly years ago and there is absolutely nothing about this rifle that indicates it was made by the Hawken brothers ! There used to be a letter with this rifle written by John Baird . It was full of hog wash ! I do like Baird's books and he did a lot of gathering good information and I agreed a lot with some of his opinions from time to time but he sure missed it on this one . This is a New York made rifle and I too have seen several guns just like this rifle marked by the New York maker. Don't be fooled by a Baird letter , at one time he wanted everything to be a Hawken !

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Rifle attributed to Sam Hawken on GB
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2020, 03:46:19 PM »
I have inspected this rifle thoroughly years ago and there is absolutely nothing about this rifle that indicates it was made by the Hawken brothers ! There used to be a letter with this rifle written by John Baird . It was full of hog wash ! I do like Baird's books and he did a lot of gathering good information and I agreed a lot with some of his opinions from time to time but he sure missed it on this one . This is a New York made rifle and I too have seen several guns just like this rifle marked by the New York maker. Don't be fooled by a Baird letter , at one time he wanted everything to be a Hawken !

Thanks for your expert opinion on the matter. I was already swayed by folks who haven't touched it.  Makes sense that Baird would have been excited to find more, rather than less "Hawkens" because of his work. That's not an accusation, just an observation.

Bidding has been slow for sure, hope it's a reflection upon buyers being informed and not just an economic thing.  Saddens me to see "unlikely legends" traded on as authentic when experts agree that they're not.  Wonder how long they'll keep re-listing it? It expires again in 4 days.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 03:52:50 PM by WadePatton »
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