Metal Patina

[Not English]

Hey All, I'm looking for advice on metal patina. I'm of the opinion that most guns of the first 1/2 of the 18th century had metal in the white. Over the course of 200+ years the metal has oxidized  to a nice fine grained brown. If you look at the metal that's protected by the stock, it's usually whitish. I'm interested in processes for graying and mottling of white metal surfaces. I'm not interested in heavily pitted surfaces. In my opinion, those surfaces reflect an abused gun. Guns in 18th century North America were a "prized" possession and tool. They were looked after. Thanks for any ideas and processes.

Dave

[rich pierce]

So, graying can be done dozens of ways. Finishes are usually a combination of texture and color.

Treatment with rust removers will create micro pits and give a soft gray finish.

Browning and rubbing back also creates micro pits that hide whatever final finish you out on the barrel. Then you could decide whether to cold blue and rub back. That will give a cold color.

Vinegar or other mild acids cut shine and often give a mottled appearance. Multiple applications of hot dog mustard applied and wrapped in plastic wrap will darken a barrel with an irregular pattern. Most of the reaction is done in an hour. Wash with a cotton cloth and re-apply and cover again. The mottling will blend with many applications. Color can be lightened in areas of “carry” with rubbing with 4-0 steel wool or a wet cotton pad sprinkled with pumice or rottenstone.

There are as many methods as there are gunmakers.

[AZshot]

I'm not sure I agree guns were not browned, or perhaps blued.  Martial arms were in the white, and are often found still in the white.  Civilian long rifles are not.  What's the reason?  They were finished.

[Hungry Horse]

 I must interject that I have disassembled numerous civilian arms, and found no signs of blue or brown under the forearm. This leads me to believe that some guns were originally left in the white. It might be that the metal finish was an option, rather than standard equipment so to speak.

  Hungry Horse

[AZshot]

"Browning or bluing the barrel is an operation that was done at various stages of completing the rifle....the barrel was blued, or browned, after the leading operation, the fitting of the patent breach, and before sights had been installed."

"Many of the muzzleloading rifles made before about 1840 have barrels that were left bright...while others were browned..."

The muzzle-loading cap lock rifle / by Ned H. Roberts. Roberts, Ned H. (Ned Henry), 1866-1948.

[canadianml1]

I am at the stage of finishing two ML's. Both barrels are polished bright at this point in time. One is a Pennsylvania fowler from circa 1770 the other is a southern mountain squirrel rifle from circa 1820.

For the smr I have decided to finish the barrel with a grey patina using brass black rubbed back with 0000 steel wool. It produces a very nice grey patina from the tests that I have done.  I too tend to think that the grey patina imitates a well cared for gun that has some natural ageing.

The fowler I am undecided about. If I can convince myself that I could achieve a smooth (not pebbly) brown finish, I might attempt this route. I too cannot bring myself to rust and pit either gun. May just leave it bright and finish it later.

Any 'pearls of wisdom' would be appreciated!

[Panzerschwein]

Have you tried the search function? There are threads ad nauseam on the subject of metal finishing.

[Gunnermike]

You could try Jim Kibler's Patina Solution -
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/collections/finishing-supplies/products/patina-solution

Mike

[canadianml1]

I have been 'around the bend' on barrel finishes on other threads so I am down to the brass black that Kibler uses in in his video. The browning chemicals I have received advice on but not sure I want it on a 1770 gun. Just hoped that someone could see something new I have missed.

Thanks for your responses.

[Bob Roller]

September of 1958 I made a light hunting/offhand target rifle using the first
58 caliber octagon barrel Bill Large made in his new shop.It  was "in the white"
and I let it change to a brown on its own.Exposure to weather,handling by anyone who
wanted to look at it from 1958 until 1962.The material was 1144 "Stressproof"
I still have the Lyman .575 mould blocks I bought NEW from Wes Kindig for $3.50

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

Why would any gunmaker in the 18th century brown or even file the bottom  three flats of the barrel? If the barrel was fire blued you might see traces of that, but they aren't going to bother with the hidden flats otherwise, so they are all going to look as if they were "in the white" on the bottom.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Heck, half of the time they didn't even really clean up the side flats much, let alone the 3 bottom flats!

I've seen quite a few with some kind of heat blue remnant on the underside of the barrel, even those that now look 'browned.'  What this means is open to a whole lot of conjecture or speculation.

You can go white or fire blued for barrel up through the early Federal period and be "safe."  You can add browning to that after - *probably* the 1790s to 1800 period, although how common it was at that early point is again conjecture.

If you're going for artificial aging of any degree, then everything just flew out the window.

I no longer subscribe to the concept of these guns being expensive and therefore cared-for.  I have seen far too many antiques that were very clearly not heavily used and nevertheless display almost immediate evidence of repair after repair, evidence of heavy rusting etc.  They may have been expensive, but they sure as heck were not babied.  Many American forged / gunsmith forged locks were of pretty low to average quality and probably needed tweaking and repair almost immediately.  *Most* lock inlets are just big holes that would be considered amateur by even the most casual hobby builder today.  Most barrel channels are just rain gutters with a barrel stuck in place.  Yes, you will find exceptions and better made pieces of course, but the majority of these things would by no means ever, ever manage to crawl up on top of the pedestal of modern expectation.

[Pukka Bundook]

As Mike says.

On British and European guns, (Just to clarify there were differences, ) Bluing was used from the earliest 16th Century and right through the 18th C,... . to be taken over by browning towards the end of the (18th) century.

Below,
"The extremely fine and perfectly preserved Vienna breech loading wheel-lock pistol, made by Simon Arnold, Augsburg, ca. 1540"





Best,
Richard.

[WadePatton]

Just wow, 480 years-old blued steel.  What a piece of work there, and preservation.

[Marcruger]

I wish I had made a note of where I saw it (perhaps Bivens' NC book), but there was an 18th century gunsmith in Wilmington NC advertising that he did blue or brown finish work on firearms.  That told me it's not a case of which, it's a case of both at the same time. 

The John Vogler silver mount gun at MESDA in Salem is unrestored.  If you get really close to it, it is hard to tell if it was blued or browned.  If browned, it was very dark, smooth and even.  I am inclined to believe it was blued, and like many, has browned a bit evenly over time. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Eric Kettenburg]

Incredible pistol.  And that kind of puts the exclamation point on the, er, point, that in any discussion of this issue or many others like it, it is also very necessary to distinguish as to whether one is discussing American work or European work.  Two entirely different worlds.

[rich pierce]

European collections are interesting.  I think it was common practice to keep guns in the finest “as new” order in some cases.  No penalties for refinishing.

[Collector]

Apples...  Try apples. 

If time isn't of any consequence, take a slice of apple and rub the metal surfaces with it.  It should, over time, turn it a smooth dark grey-ish color.  I had a rather pristine little gentleman's pocket knife that I put to use, on my chair-side table, to slice the occasional after-dinner apple and that's what has happened to it. 

Of course, I'm not taking it to the range and wiping it down with any type of oil, so your results may differ.

Have you considered a 'soft' rust blue finish?  Allen Martin used a rust blue barrel finish on the Reading piece he did for me and it was the perfect compliment to the wood and brass finishes.

     

[Bob Roller]

A breech loading wheel lock with a cartridge that has a locking lug.
About 400 years later SOMEONE finally figured out that THIS will work 
Bob Roller

[heinz]

I would like to address the initial premise.  My Jaeger is filed and finished on all eight flats.  When you are inletting a barrel having the flats filed smooth makes the work easier.  The 18th-century standard was a "good workmanlike manner"  not only worry about what shows.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rich,

The pistol above hadn't been refinished, it was as it was, and rare because of that.
However, I've seen many matchlock guns , kept at Graz and such places, that were blued and still blue, plus even matchlock locks that were blued.

Eric,

Spot on in your observation, and the reason I enclosed the photos.

Collector,

"Apples";
 Come to think of it, look how they blue a carbon steel knife!  Good idea!

Bob R.
:-)

[Clark Badgett]

I'm not sure I agree guns were not browned, or perhaps blued.  Martial arms were in the white, and are often found still in the white.  Civilian long rifles are not.  What's the reason?  They were finished.

This is a fairly broad stroke to paint. While there are indeed martial arms that are today still in the white or even mostly white, it is not exactly common to find them so well preserved or even intact. Not to mention that the M1816 musket had a period when they were Armory blued and case hardened. And there is the fact that immediately following the Civil War, many, many smoothbore martial arms were completely sold as surplus and finished their lives as civilian makeshift shotguns in the hands of Western settlers.

[Not English]

Hey All, I appreciate all the input. I think I may start with Kibler's stuff and go from there. I fooled around with ferric nitrate (? very strong nitric acid + iron and steel wool and then filtered) on steel and have had a lot of different results. Most of them pretty good. Colors varied from blackish to brown depending on how heavy the application was and how long it was left sitting.

Canadianml1, if you decide to brown that fowler, I've had very good results with Laurel Mountain Forge stuff. I only finish a barrel to be browned to 180 grit and then degrease. Apply the browning with a cotton rag that's dipped in a small bowl of the solution. Put the coated metal parts in a humid location. Humidity is your friend. Do not let the rust particles get too coarse before carding. You're looking for an even rust coating before carding with 0000 steel wool. Do not apply enough pressure to take it down to bare metal. Repeat the whole process again and again until you have a very uniform finely grained rusted surface. When you are at a point you're happy with, slather on the oil to stop the process. It won't happen immediately so pay attention and do not let the surface dry out. You will be surprised how much oil it will suck up. You can lightly card it if needed with steel wool and oil. Clear oils will give a more brown color. Used motor drain oil will give you a much darker black/brown finish due to the burned hydro carbons in the oil. Cold browning will give a considerably more durable finish than a hot brown. If you go  the hot brown route you will get a redder plum brown finish. You do not need tanks and such to hot brown. If you're interested, I'd be happy to provide more info.

Dave

[AZshot]

I'm just saying, broadly, that any martial arm I ever saw in a collection that was made in the white - stayed in the white.  White Barrels Matter and all....

[Clark Badgett]

I'm just saying, broadly, that any martial arm I ever saw in a collection that was made in the white - stayed in the white.  White Barrels Matter and all....

A museum display of pristine kept contract Colt M1861 rifle muskets is by no means any indicator of what the majority looked like after being carried on various campaigns that our military forces took part in over the 90+/- years that they carried muzzle loading long arms.