How were forming dies for locks made?

[Rolf]

I've finished reading JHAT volume 1  Lock making.  Fascinating stuff. But there is no description on how the dies were made. Were they cast?

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Black Hand]

When I read it, it seems that a full-size model was made then was stamped into a block of hot metal which after cooling was used as the mold.  Molds for the other part were also made this way.

[Dave B]

I have made forming dies on a smaller scale for creating the wedding bands on ramrod pipes. I made a positive model then heated my soon to be forming die up to heat and struck it over the positive section till I had a perfect section imprinted in its face. This worked very well though it was hard to keep the shank of the die from drifting in the process.

[jerrywh]

 You can learn a lot from reading the harpers ferry armory books and other early books on armories , like Springfield armory.   Most of their dies were cast iron.  The reason being , they were easy to make and were a lot of mass. The large mass enabled them to take a lot of heat without deforming.  There are books about the Ames sword factories also that are very informative. Another good book is ,Three centuries of Liege gun making.

[Dave B]

Several of our members here have made a set for lock parts.  I have held in my hand at the NMLRA gunsmithing classes in Bowling Green KY a set made by Ryan McNabb. He had done some volunteer work at the gunsmiths shop at Colonial Williamsburg and was able to make him self a set there. Maybe he or Gary (Flintriflesmith)could chime in on how they made them. Each die was about 3-3 1/2"  square on the face and a 4" shank that was tapered and weighed 5-6 lbs each.

I have thought about getting together with a couple of the smiths that have power hammers that would have no trouble stamping a pattern into a chunk of steel. I watched them use a steam hammer to pound out  4"x 4" X 12" square stock wrought Iron billet into a square 1" rod that was 24" long in ten minutes. The power of the hammer was awesome. You could get the same affect with four apprentices with ten pound sledges with constant rhythm for half an hour.The wrought Iron was headed for the forges at Historic Old fort Vancouver here on the Washington side of the Columbia

[rich pierce]

I have made forming dies on a smaller scale for creating the wedding bands on ramrod pipes. I made a positive model then heated my soon to be forming die up to heat and struck it over the positive section till I had a perfect section imprinted in its face. This worked very well though it was hard to keep the shank of the die from drifting in the process.

Would love to see a picture of your dies.

[flintriflesmith]

I've finished reading JHAT volume 1  Lock making.  Fascinating stuff. But there is no description on how the dies were made. Were they cast?
Best regards
Rolfkt

I know that being the author of Volume I puts me in the position of coming across as defensive but I can't let this one go.
The caption for Figure 20, which shows a lock plate forging die being made, reads "The die is initially forned by driving a steel pattern into the body of the die, which has been brought to bright orange heat; here a flatter and sledge are in use....
Immediately below that figure (page 27) the text says, "Dies of this general type are used for a number of lock parts, and they are all made in the same fashion. [bold added] A steel master is made in the shape of the desired finished  forging, and the metal for the die, eithr iron or steelforged to fit the anvil, is brought to a bright orange and the cold master is hammered into it. several heats may be needed.   Forge scale is cleaned out, and the corners sharpened with files and chisels. Bar lead can be hammered into tht die to test it. ...


I am glad you enjoyed the article.
Gary

[Dave B]

Here is my attempt at a die for forming the wedding bands on rod pipes. The die was heated just as Gary described and driven on to the rod you see next to it. In the end I modified the simple punch to take the place of the more cumbersome die. I still use the mandrel that was the pattern for the die to bump up the brass.

[rich pierce]

That is real nice and very helpful.  Thanks for the pictures!
rp

[Acer Saccharum]

http://thoscurran.wordpress.com/files/2008/08/dsc_7075.jpg

While this is far from a lock part, the concept is the same. On the left is the master, cut from tool steel, hardened and tempered. On the right is the soft steel die that has been pushed onto the hardened master. The area surrounding the goat image is ground flat.  Once the border details have been added to the die, and all polishing done, I harden it.

[Acer Saccharum]

Then here is the finished stamp, witha silver 'proof' piece:
http://thoscurran.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/dsc_7152.jpg

I made the stamp the way I did, because it is SO much easier to work in the positive than down in a cavity.

I suspect the patterns for making the lock dies were made in the positive, and then pushed or pounded into the hot iron die blanks. This is an intimidating process from my point of view, but I think the pattern shops back then were doing this every day.

[Bubblehead]

Any chance the pictures from this thread could be recovered? There's a lot of interest in lock making right now and the information here is invaluable!

[Bob Roller]

That is real nice and very helpful.  Thanks for the pictures!
rp

What pictures?? By the way,accurate casting was supposedly done in ancient Egypt before the time of Jesus Christ.Hammering and banging something into shape seems primitive in comparison.My own lock making methods rank with the stone axe but the results were good enough to the point that people in Europe sought my phone number and the now deceased Helmut Mohr and others kept me busy.I was fascinated by the work of the English lock filers and have come very close to duplicating that level of workmanship.Oddly shaped parts like those of a gun lock can be produced in sand moulds like transmission cases and motor blocks.Today we have tools that could not have been thought of 400 years ago and what they did with what they had is amazing but reverting to it can be a real study.The only hammering I did was when I made the springs and that was minimal.I got the materials together and then removed everything that wasn't part of a lock and it seems to wotk.
Bob Roller

[Kevin Houlihan]

   Be aware that the post is 15 years old and at least 3 of the responders have passed away. If you do a search for posts by “Clint” who is a member here you should find lock die making info and lock making in general.
Kevin

[Bob Roller]

That's good.Stirs up old discussions.
Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

I agree, it would be good to re-visit some of these old posts.  There were some good discussions over the years.  It does make you pause to think about comments from those now gone...

[Tim Crosby]

 Does that help? TC

[Bob Roller]

Reviving old threads can be a benefit and they can help those who came later into the hobby/business of muzzle loading guns.
Choosing material for lock making IS important especially for those of us who sent locks and triggers across the sea.The MECHANISM
is the engine that makes the external parts a useful mechanism and few have a sophisticated design with the possible exception of the English caplocks that were carried into the cartridge era with minor modifications.There were two others who took on the fine style of the Brazier and Stanton lock mechanisms other than me.One was Bill Roberts now 20 years deceased and one other whose name evades me and we compared our ideas about methods and materials to arrive at what we achieved.The locks seen on many or maybe most American caplocks were hardware store locks with full cock only tumblers and I have made a few of these and have one partly done now on the bench from 2019.These were special orders for builders who wanted a lock like the old ones.The only "safety"these have is a good checkering on the hammer spur.Most old ones have none.I am done with shop work now and decided to "Pull the plug"just after installing new LED lights and and air conditioner.
Bob Roller

[J. Talbert]

I agree, it would be good to re-visit some of these old posts.  There were some good discussions over the years.  It does make you pause to think about comments from those now gone...

That same sad thought occurred to me as I read through this thread.
3 of the posters here are no longer with us.

Jeff

[Dphariss]

I've finished reading JHAT volume 1  Lock making.  Fascinating stuff. But there is no description on how the dies were made. Were they cast?
Best regards
Rolfkt

I know that being the author of Volume I puts me in the position of coming across as defensive but I can't let this one go.
The caption for Figure 20, which shows a lock plate forging die being made, reads "The die is initially forned by driving a steel pattern into the body of the die, which has been brought to bright orange heat; here a flatter and sledge are in use....
Immediately below that figure (page 27) the text says, "Dies of this general type are used for a number of lock parts, and they are all made in the same fashion. [bold added] A steel master is made in the shape of the desired finished  forging, and the metal for the die, eithr iron or steelforged to fit the anvil, is brought to a bright orange and the cold master is hammered into it. several heats may be needed.   Forge scale is cleaned out, and the corners sharpened with files and chisels. Bar lead can be hammered into tht die to test it. ...
 

I am glad you enjoyed the article.
Gary

Thanks. I always enjoy/learn from things based on the experiences/teaching in Colonial Williamsburg.
This forging makes sense and is what I would have guessed. However, what about the one piece English flintlock lockplates? And I can see as casting became common in industry and in places like a 19th C gov’t armory casting them of iron or steel would be an advantage since identical copies could be made much faster. I am also sure that some early percussion plates were made in the same dies as late flintlock plates. I should be mowing grass or making two piece Hawken buttplate but here I am. Straining my eyes.

[Jim Kibler]

Steel casting was not performed prior to the 20th century.  Malleable iron, yes, but not steel.  Malleable iron is a type of gray iron (flake iron), that after casting was held at elevated temperatures for a LONG period of time.  I'm not certain how long or the temp. without looking it up, but it was a lengthy cycle.  What this did is make the graphite more spheroidal as opposed to flake-like.  By making it more spheroidal, the material becomes more ductile and avoids the brittleness associated with gray iron.  I'm sure this was used on some later 19th century military guns.  If I'm not mistaken these castings were typically made heavier and bulkier to overcome the difficulties of casting and the weaker properties as compared to wrought iron or steel.

[Clint]

As Gary stated, the basic proccess to making a die is pretty simple. A master is made then hammered into a very hot piece of iron or steel. cast iron dies were used by armories, probably a two or three stage forging, using a board hammer to push the iron into the die. The one piece lockplates, that is plates with integral pans . were welded in the fire and a second thought was never given to the work. I have studied English wrought iron gatesmithing and compared it to German gatesmithing and except for artistic interpretations, the main differenc between the two is that the Brits welded everything while the Germans split and chisled the ornamental features of their grill work If you read old books about blacksmithing you will run across the term 'rough forging' These rough forgings are what went on to the lock filers. All of the lock parts except the springs were made of wrought iron prior to the 20th century This is not a die, but rather a swage used with a hand hammer. This is not 'blacksmithing 101'
 

[Clark Badgett]

Steel casting was not performed prior to the 20th century.  Malleable iron, yes, but not steel.  Malleable iron is a type of gray iron (flake iron), that after casting was held at elevated temperatures for a LONG period of time.  I'm not certain how long or the temp. without looking it up, but it was a lengthy cycle.  What this did is make the graphite more spheroidal as opposed to flake-like.  By making it more spheroidal, the material becomes more ductile and avoids the brittleness associated with gray iron.  I'm sure this was used on some later 19th century military guns.  If I'm not mistaken these castings were typically made heavier and bulkier to overcome the difficulties of casting and the weaker properties as compared to wrought iron or steel.

I don’t know what methods were used or if the wording may have been different, but I have seen literature for cast steel plane blades and own an 1840s coffin shaped plane that had a thin blade marked as cast. I will need to hunt it up to verify it 100% though.

[Clint]

Cast steel was a raw material, sold to blacksmiths and tool makers. The steel was hammered into useful  things and heat treated for hardness. Look carefully at your plane iron and you may see where the steel-iron were welded together (about one third of the length from the cutting edge) CAST STEEL was stamped onto a million steel products, The modern translation is NEW & IMPROVED.

[Carl Young]

Don't forget Crucible Steel, "There is unimpeachable evidence that Benjamin Huntsman was casting steel by the end of the 1740s and that the technique was taken up by others—although not by many—in the three decades that followed. And there can be no doubt that Sheffield stood out as the world centre of crucible steel production in the early 19th century."
https://hmsjournal.org/index.php/home/issue/view/22

This kind of thing was normal dinner time conversation at our house when I was in Elementary School in Birmingham, AL and Dad was a metallurgist @ USS


Best regards,
Carl