Author Topic: RCA #43  (Read 3135 times)

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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RCA #43
« on: July 20, 2020, 08:48:20 PM »
Hello everyone.  I have been reading up on RCA #43 in the RCA and the Moravian Gunbuilders Book.  Have any of you seen it in person?  I am curious about the patchbox?  Do you any of you think it was original to the gun?  The Moravian Gunbuilders book states that there is no evidence of a previous patchbox, but it looks later to me. 


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Cory Joe Stewart

Offline Molly

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2020, 11:25:02 PM »
The text on that gun as written (page 182) states it is probably not original but a "modern restoration".

CORRECTION!!!!!

I was looking at 42 but 43 page 188 strongly suggests it is not original to the gun.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 11:46:54 PM by Molly »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2020, 11:53:42 PM »
The text on that gun as written (page 182) states it is probably not original but a "modern restoration".

CORRECTION!!!!!

I was looking at 42 but 43 page 188 strongly suggests it is not original to the gun.
Depends on what book you're reading and who you believe. Lots of wishful thinking on these old guns. I have no opinion other than I am naturally a sceptic.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2020, 12:03:48 AM »
Cory Joe, George Shumway stated his concern back in 1980, and he doubted the pbox on # 42 as well. I have been fortunate to sit with this rifle in my lap for an hour on several occasions, and to study it with advanced collectors. I wrote the text with notes and questions in Moravian Gunstocking II.  I cannot add any more than what is written there.

When I stock a version of this rifle, it will include this box.  It is very similar to ca 1825 - 1850 Henry family Old English rifles made here for the fur trade, which were copies from English made rifles, which were copied from American rifles.  How far back this goes, we don't yet know.  Bob

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2020, 12:08:21 AM »
There is no way on this planet that the box currently on that gun is original.  I very, VERY strongly  believe that if you want to stock it "as new," then put a wood box on it.  There, out on a limb meet my mouth.

Bob you are much more polite and cautious than I!
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2020, 12:25:42 AM »
Cory Joe, George Shumway stated his concern back in 1980, and he doubted the pbox on # 42 as well. I have been fortunate to sit with this rifle in my lap for an hour on several occasions, and to study it with advanced collectors. I wrote the text with notes and questions in Moravian Gunstocking II.  I cannot add any more than what is written there.

When I stock a version of this rifle, it will include this box.  It is very similar to ca 1825 - 1850 Henry family Old English rifles made here for the fur trade, which were copies from English made rifles, which were copied from American rifles.  How far back this goes, we don't yet know.  Bob

Thank you Bob.

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2020, 12:26:47 AM »
Thank you everyone.  Dont worry about the limb Mr. Kettenburg.  This is a safe space.

Cory Joe Stewart

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2020, 12:33:37 AM »
The text on that gun as written (page 182) states it is probably not original but a "modern restoration".

CORRECTION!!!!!

I was looking at 42 but 43 page 188 strongly suggests it is not original to the gun.

There are some that disagree with that assessment of #42.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2020, 02:09:55 AM »
There are some that disagree with that assessment of #42.

What's the hipster phrase from the 90s?  WHOOMP THERE IT IS!
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 03:47:50 AM »
There are some that disagree with that assessment of #42.

Yep. Thats it!

What's the hipster phrase from the 90s?  WHOOMP THERE IT IS!

Offline bama

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2020, 05:52:32 PM »
When I first started studying Rifle No. 42 I thought that the trigger guard and the patch box had to be later replacements. I took a class at the NMLRA Gunsmithing classes where Wallace had this rifle totally apart for the students to study. I photographed every inch and every inlet and I could not find any evidence that either piece were not original to the rifle. I might be wrong about this but I have studied many originals and have done my share of restoration work and most of the time you can see evidence where parts have been replaced, not so on this rifle.

I have these photo's posted on my web site for anyone that would care to look at them, they are posted under Naked Longrifles.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2020, 06:06:32 PM »
Jim I can see it both ways, especially given the prevalence of side-openers in PA including a couple that are quite similar to 42 (including the need for the awkward clearance gutter along the lower edge, before the Bucks Co. guys fixed the issue).  However, some of my thinking has changed in more recent years.  I want to be clear, I don't think it's possible one way or the other to definitively determine if the 42 box is a very old replacement, and so I would tend to take it at face value.  What I would say is that *if* it were a very old in-period replacement (i.e., say 10 or 20 years into it's lifetime) for one of those cast captured lid boxes that mimic its shape, given the huge mortise that is now present in 42, all evidence of the original box would have been obliterated.  One thing I don't buy into is the concept of the coil spring somehow meaning something or being indicative of something; its a coil spring of a type found in use in other objects of the period.  Someone thought 'hey, this will work.'  Whether it was the original stocker and the box / spring is original, or someone wanting to fix a problem who had such a spring on hand - I have no clue, but I don't think that the coil spring somehow points to anything specific.  Just my own thoughts.

The box on 43 is a fairly substantial casting of a later period and once again, it's installation would have essentially obliterated any sign of a wood box lid assuming the box side rails were cut in a traditional manner and not half an inch deep like many today unfortunately do!
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2020, 07:15:51 PM »
Funny thing about 42; it seems such a nexus piece. If the box was an in use replacement or addition, that might change any logical deductions about its relatedness to later longrifles, based on the box form.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2020, 07:23:43 PM »
Something that really made me reevaluate a lot pertaining to #42 was the appearance of the restocked silver mounts for J E Colhoun, 1785 in Pendleton, SC.  The furnishings and the box engraving in particular raise some extremely interesting questions and have caused me to think a whole lot about Jacob Loesch.
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2020, 10:02:00 PM »
So what are your thoughts on where #42 was made?

Cory Joe

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2020, 10:04:10 PM »
When I first started studying Rifle No. 42 I thought that the trigger guard and the patch box had to be later replacements. I took a class at the NMLRA Gunsmithing classes where Wallace had this rifle totally apart for the students to study. I photographed every inch and every inlet and I could not find any evidence that either piece were not original to the rifle. I might be wrong about this but I have studied many originals and have done my share of restoration work and most of the time you can see evidence where parts have been replaced, not so on this rifle.

I have these photo's posted on my web site for anyone that would care to look at them, they are posted under Naked Longrifles.

I just looked at your website for the first time.  What a fantastic resource.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2020, 02:10:41 AM »
So what are your thoughts on where #42 was made?

My current thoughts revolve a lot around Jacob Loesch, whether in PA or NC.  Unfortunately, no signed work with which to compare.

It may be as early as 1760s, in which case Beck would indeed be a more likely candidate if made in NC, or it may simply be an 'old fashioned' piece made as late as the 1780s.  Again, just don't know.

That Colhoun restock with the box dated 1785 is invaluable, because it provides a clear waypoint as of 1785 insofar as some of the furnishings.  If the 1785 date is accurate, and *if* the original rifle which provided the furnishings was a Salem-made rifle, then Loesch is the only candidate as far as I can tell.
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Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: RCA #43
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2020, 03:40:58 AM »
So what are your thoughts on where #42 was made?

My current thoughts revolve a lot around Jacob Loesch, whether in PA or NC.  Unfortunately, no signed work with which to compare.

It may be as early as 1760s, in which case Beck would indeed be a more likely candidate if made in NC, or it may simply be an 'old fashioned' piece made as late as the 1780s.  Again, just don't know.

That Colhoun restock with the box dated 1785 is invaluable, because it provides a clear waypoint as of 1785 insofar as some of the furnishings.  If the 1785 date is accurate, and *if* the original rifle which provided the furnishings was a Salem-made rifle, then Loesch is the only candidate as far as I can tell.

Interesting. I live minutes from Bethabara and Salem