Author Topic: smoothbore windage problem  (Read 3091 times)

Offline varsity07840

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smoothbore windage problem
« on: July 29, 2020, 12:39:40 AM »

I have a musket with a relined barrel. As shown in the photo, the wall thickness is greater on the left side of the muzzle than the left. But it shoots way to the left. Does this make sense? Thoughts on correcting the windage problem would be welcome. If I have to bend it, do I bend it to the right?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 01:20:44 AM »
Yes bend it to the right. I’ve heard tell of filing the muzzle a little off square left to right to let gasses push the ball to one side but that scares me more than bending the barrel. And I think that method may be velocity-dependent.
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Offline Not English

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2020, 01:25:36 AM »
I've heard stories of Cree hunters taking a newly purchased trade gun from HBC and bending it in the crotch of a tree to make shoot where they wanted. These were new Northwest Trade guns that were purchased in the 1920's.

Offline Daryl

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2020, 01:58:39 AM »
As Rich noted. Bend to the right - out of the stock, then reassemble and shoot it again. Keep doing this until satisfied.
Thumping the barrel against an aspen tree work. I suspect most trees with a thick cambium layer would work. The thick cambium
softens the blow and spreads it out further so the barrel doesn't kink. Some people use 2 tree, or a crotch.
Here is another method.



2012 e550 specs


Daryl

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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2020, 02:21:42 AM »
 If you are bound and determined to shoot a patched round ball in your smoothbore, then don’t bend the barrel. The pressure behind a tightly patched ball will straighten out the barrel in time. Shooting a bare ball, even with big loads doesn’t affect the bent barrel because it doesn’t produce so much back pressure. As long as it not shooting several feet from your point of aim it can be remedied by filing the muzzle.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Brokennock

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2020, 04:22:40 PM »
That is odd.

The method of regulating p.o.i. by filing the muzzle removes metal from the face, or crown, of the muzzle, not the inside.
If this is what someone were attempting, they screwed up.
They got the same effect, but without the ability to easily square things up again if they went too far.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2020, 10:07:31 PM »
 I don’t think the barrel as is reflects any attempt to regulate the impact of the bullet. I think its just a poorly finished barrel.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Daryl

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2020, 11:50:36 PM »
If you are bound and determined to shoot a patched round ball in your smoothbore, then don’t bend the barrel. The pressure behind a tightly patched ball will straighten out the barrel in time. Shooting a bare ball, even with big loads doesn’t affect the bent barrel because it doesn’t produce so much back pressure. As long as it not shooting several feet from your point of aim it can be remedied by filing the muzzle.

  Hungry Horse

Interesting theory.  The Bess Taylor had, went for years, shooting centre, after bending the barrel.
I am doubtful about the ball straightening it out.
Even if it did "shoot straight" it's pretty simple to re-bend it.
I've never heard of rifle barrels shooting straight again, either.
Daryl

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Offline P.Bigham

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2020, 12:13:01 AM »
1st thing I would do is make sure end of the muzzle is square with the sides of the barrel. Then check the crown if there is one to make sure it’s even around. Make sure the underlugs if it has them are slotted and pins can move freely forward and aft. Last I would remove the barrel pull the breech plug and check for straightness. If there is a front sight or lug make sure it’s centered. If all else is good I’d bend the barrel. Depending on the iron or steel of the barrel you may have bend it a lot to hold. I’ve bent quite a few and never seen one return after shooting for years patched or bare ball. I hope you post what your results are and what worked for you.
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Offline Brokennock

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2020, 02:26:43 AM »
I don’t think the barrel as is reflects any attempt to regulate the impact of the bullet. I think its just a poorly finished barrel.

  Hungry Horse

I don't either, but, someone earlier seemed to think that this is what had been done.

Offline Daryl

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2020, 09:46:52 PM »

I have a musket with a relined barrel. As shown in the photo, the wall thickness is greater on the left side of the muzzle than the left. But it shoots way to the left. Does this make sense? Thoughts on correcting the windage problem would be welcome. If I have to bend it, do I bend it to the right?

I think you mean it was re-bored.  Relined means a barrel "liner" was installed, ie: soldered or epoxied inside the original barrel.
The barrel must be bent to the right, yes.
How far to the left does it shoot?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 12:40:05 AM »

I have a musket with a relined barrel. As shown in the photo, the wall thickness is greater on the left side of the muzzle than the left. But it shoots way to the left. Does this make sense? Thoughts on correcting the windage problem would be welcome. If I have to bend it, do I bend it to the right?

I think you mean it was re-bored.  Relined means a barrel "liner" was installed, ie: soldered or epoxied inside the original barrel.
The barrel must be bent to the right, yes.
How far to the left does it shoot?

It was relined around 20 years ago by Bob Hoyt. it's been year since I've shot it without the temporary rear sight I had on it, but I'd a a foot at 50yds.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2020, 01:09:19 AM »
Is that a blade front sight? Could you show off more of the musket so we can see what ya got?
Psalms 144

Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2020, 02:48:39 AM »
It's an 1816 flint. The blade sight was something I added to the barrel in conjunction with a temporary rear sight that compensated for the windage problem. I've removed both. As you may know, the original front sight is mounted on the front barrel band. The sight set up worked fine. I could put all my shots in a 4" square at 50 yards, but I want to use it in smoothbore matches at my club, and rear sights are not allowed.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2020, 04:51:47 AM »
Oh I love the M1816 most of all those old muskets.
Psalms 144

Offline Daryl

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2020, 07:40:57 PM »
WOW - liner must be pretty thin.
1 foot is not much. Being lined, I don't know if it can be bent, but I guess so.
That might depend on the method of attachment of the liner to the original bl.
If soldered, likely fine. If epoxied, maybe not so good.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2020, 08:51:20 PM »
I'm glad you brought up the liner issue. I was wondering about bending it. I'm pretty sure it's epoxied.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2020, 11:48:21 PM »
I am not seeing a liner.  Maybe just me!?
In His grip,

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Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2020, 12:38:40 AM »
I am not seeing a liner.  Maybe just me!?
Bobby Hoyt did it. Rarely do you see a seam on his work. I’m trying to get a hold of him to ask him about bending it. If you know Bobby, you know how tough it can be to get ahold of him.

Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2020, 04:17:59 PM »
I just spoke to Bob Hoyt. He said bending it with the liner in it is ok. Now comes the scary part.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2020, 08:37:53 PM »
Before you bend it, lay a straight edge along the right side of the barrel and measure the gap between the barrel and the straight edge.  Use number drills.  When you get one that will just pass in the gap, measure it and write the number down.  You can set up the barrel on a stiff bench and "V" blocks made of wood at the ends, and then use a big "C" clamp to introduce a bend into the barrel.  When you've tried to bend it, remove it from the blocks and again, measure to see if you have bent it.  Hopefully, you'll be able to pass a larger number drill, but again, write it down.  Now shoot the gun to see if there is an improvement.  If not, repeat, introducing more bend until the gun shoots where you are looking. 
You said you removed the front sight...you cannot expect measurable results without at least a front sight.  Make sure, when you attach your new front sight that it is in the centre of the tube.  No point bending the barrel further than necessary.
If that system is going too slowly for you, put your "V" blocks on the floor and step on the barrel so that it deflects top the right.  You'll be surprised how much pressure you can apply before you see any results...remember to measure so you can see if you're making headway.

When I needed to bend my Bess barrel, I did it at the range by removing the barrel from the stock, seizing the barrel by the muzzle, and whacking it against one of the upright supports for the Shooting shed...got some strange looks but no one asked me any questions.  I think I had to whack it several times before I was happy with the results, but it did work and went from missing the mark to centre punching it.  I won many smoothbore matches shooting that old TRS Bess, but in a weak moment, sold it to one of this site's subscribers...regrettably.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 08:42:05 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline varsity07840

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2020, 02:17:11 AM »
Thanks for your input. I like the number drill idea. Bob told me that it shouldn't take too much pressure to get a bend because it's an iron barrel as opposed to modern steel. We'll see what happens.

The front sight was barrel mounted by me. The front barrel band has a sight on it, which I intend to use.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 07:34:12 PM by varsity07840 »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2020, 02:21:33 AM »
Definitely, start out light and heavy up as needed.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Daryl

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2020, 03:24:35 AM »
Thanks for your input. I like the number drill idea. Bob told me that it shouldn't take too much pressure to get a bend because it's an iron barrel as opposed to modern steel. We'll see what happens.

YES - didn't think of that. That is good information. Bobby Shines!
Daryl

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Offline Bsharp

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Re: smoothbore windage problem
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2020, 04:18:16 AM »
The old local gunsmith use to tune slug shooting shotguns in the tree crotch.
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