Author Topic: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk  (Read 695 times)

Offline Mike Lyons

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Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« on: July 30, 2020, 10:12:13 PM »
Why is pistol #21 listed as an unknown maker?  It clearly has the initials "JR" on the wrist.  John Rupp was a known maker.  I've seen a lot of work attributed with a lot less evidence.  Does anyone have any thoughts on that pistol?  Looking at John Rupp's work and that pistol, I can see some similarities. 

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 02:53:06 PM »
Looks like nobody knows nothin. I'll go out on a limb and say I always assumed that was a Rupp gun
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 05:01:11 PM »
Sure looks like John Rupp.  Maybe the owner thought differently or was unsure? 
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline louieparker

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 05:10:41 PM »
I really doubt this is Jimmy Rogers.....LP


Offline Daryl

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2020, 07:33:24 PM »
 ;D ;D Louie!
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 08:07:04 PM »
I really doubt this is Jimmy Rogers.....LP


I agree Mr. Parker.  Itís definitely not a attributed to Earnhardt Jr.   ;D

Offline HIB

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2020, 08:22:55 AM »
Gentlemen:  The initials J R on the pistols thumb plate and the patchbox, recently posted, certainly weigh heavy in Rupp's favor, However, the pistol and rifle may have been made for the same person.  And his initials may have been J R.

I think several various 'signature characteristics' need to be examined prior to an accurate attribution. As an example:  Jacob Kuntz's use of a platform surrounding the  breech tang is very similar to what we see on this pistol.  In addition, the surround of the basket weave is identical to several Jacob Kuntz pistols extant. And the basket weave carving, itself, is not a simple task. Both Rupp and Kuntz basket weave techniques need to be studied  You will also find parallel lines carved above the lock and below the lock mortise on both Rupp and Kuntz pistols. And something else to consider is the 'hen scratching' engraving found on many J. Kuntz rifles and pistols. Is it there on #21 ?

I believe someone with a greater talent than mine should post detailed pictures of number 21 along with detailed photos of known examples of pistols either signed or attributed to J. Kuntz.  Then a time frame should be established in which both gunsmiths worked.  As a starter, it is believed Jacob Kuntz learned the trade near Allentown before moving to Philadelphia in or near 1810 or 1811. It is entirely possible Kuntz apprenticed with Rupp several years before moving his shop to Philadelphia. I do not know when Rupp was active.  A documented study, if not already done, would bring the maker of the unsifgned #21 pistol closer to a reasonable attribution.  At the moment, it is my opinion #21  was made by Rupp, but it could also be an early J. Kuntz, made prior to his move to Philly. And it might have been made by Kuntz in the Rupp shop.

For now you have a superb Kentucky pistol courtesy of the Kentucky Rifle Foundation and its affiliate the Kentucky Rifle Association.

The challenge is to identify the maker and provide the collector/owner with at least an attribution based on fact and reasonable comparisons.   

Think 'signature characteristics' .  In this case the 'basket weave' will play a large role.               


With respect, HIB

Offline louieparker

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 05:51:17 PM »
Henry I agree we need more research..  But in my opinion if JR doesn't stand for John Rupp, but for the owner ( Jimmy Rogers) old Jimmy had to be a big collector .  As I know of other JR rifles .. Just my thoughts .....LP

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 06:07:26 PM »
I really doubt this is Jimmy Rogers.....LP


I agree Mr. Parker.  Itís definitely not a attributed to Earnhardt Jr.   ;Dote]

The checkering looks like something I did in High School.Or maybe yesterday ;D
Bob Roller


Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 08:09:13 PM »
Henry thank you for your reasoned, courteous and as always intelligent comments. 

I would *almost always* tend to discount the initials on a thumb piece, but in the particular case of pieces attributed to John Rupp, there seem to be a fair number of arms with the same initials on a thumb piece that furthermore are engraved in the same style, and meanwhile the pieces also show a similarity in both regional style as well as other engraving and assorted details.  So, I'll be the first to say "I don't know,' but in this case Rupp does seem to be a likely candidate.  As does Kuntz!  I will freely admit that a lot of this later Lehigh work does not interest me nearly as much as the earliest Federal period work does, but I find a lot of work attributed to either/or as almost interchangeable.  Almost, not always.

An alternate possibility I suppose is that some guy with the initials "JR" in the Lehigh area was amassing a fairly large collection of pieces from one maker, who may have been Kuntz or may have purely coincidentally been John Rupp!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 08:21:36 PM »
Thanks for the great information.   Iím building a another Lehigh and have come across a lot similarities between the Rupp and Kuntz family.   Another example that I have found is the Herman Rupp gun and the signed Kuntz gun that have nearly identical buttstock carving as the Kuntz rifle on the kra disk.   It was probably common to put wire inlay around a patchbox but both guns seem to share something.  It makes you wonder if the gunmakers gathered like they do now and passed around their work and shared ideas.  Or did they visit each other often to look for parts and BS.



Offline louieparker

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2020, 10:24:16 PM »
In the sixties George Shumway owned this rifle..He said it was made by Jacob Kuntz.. We discussed this rifle here a few years ago..As I recall no one agreed with him,  But no decision made as to who did the work..  LP




Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 11:43:29 PM »
That one sure looks like a Kuntz.  Whatís not Kuntz on that gun?  It would be hard to argue against it.

Offline louieparker

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 01:18:00 AM »
Mike here are a few more details..Note the nose cap with all the filed flats. The barrel signature is so fancied that its about unreadable or is unreadable.....LP


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Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Pistol #21 on KRA Lehigh Disk
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 03:06:42 AM »
Those are some great pictures.  Looking down in the third picture,  itís amazing how thin these guys got their guns.  They really took pride in their work.