Interesting chronograph results

[Steeltrap]

I went to the range today to chronograph my 3 different flintlock firearms. One is a Leman .54 cal, then a T\C .50 caliber with a Green Mt replacement barrel and the third, my .50 caliber flintlock pistol with a 12" barrel. (And now I have a lot of cleaning to do!!) All numbers were at 12 feet from the bench, and all were 5 shot averages.

50 Caliber pistol:
Velocity (average) of Hornady Pa. Conical 240gr. 939-fps
Load of 50gr. GOEX FFF

50 Caliber T\C rifle:
Velocity (average) of Hornady Pa. Conical 240gr. 1,950-fps
Load of 100gr. GOEX FF


50 Caliber T\C rifle:
Velocity (average) of Hornady PRB 180gr. 2,130-fps
Load of 100gr. GOEX FF

54 Caliber Leman rife:
Velocity (average) of Hornady PRB 240gr. 1,709-fps
Load of 110gr. GOEX FF

A few points of interest to note:  I'm using BC's for the 50 cal PRB and Pa Conical of .070 and for the 54 cal I'm using .075. The BC's for the RB's come from Lyman....but I cannot find the BC's for the Hornady Pa Conical so I left the BC's for those at .070.

Even with the higher MV 50 cal PRB (2,130) vs the 50 cal Hornady Pa Conical MV (1,950) The Pa Conical shows higher downrange energy with slower velocities. (50 yard velocity 1633 vs 1486. Energy 1,066 vs 1,177)

The 50 caliber shows higher downrange energy when compared to the 54 caliber.....but they are both shooting the same weight projectile and the 54 cal is slower out of the gate.

[Daryl]

Interesting results.  Likely the BC for the conicals will be at or slightly over .110 for the .50 and .095 for the .54 of identical weight.
Indeed, the FPE results for the .50's bullet will be higher at any range, however, FPE is a rather sterile mathematical measurement
& does not take into consideration, shape and diameter, both vitally important when dealing with critters.
Interesting results, though. Another 10gr. of powder might have brought the .54 into the lime-light, however I'd be likely looking at
something in the 450gr. range, for the .54.  240gr. is VERY light for that calibre, barely over round ball weight.

[Steeltrap]

I do agree that another 10gr may have brought up the .54 cal to meet or slightly exceed the .50 cal conical. However, my .54 cal shoots it's most accurate groups using 110gr of FF vs 120gr of FF. And FWIW, FFF in the .54 cal doesn't provide the tight groups the FF powder does.

OTOH, the downrange power of the .50 rifle or the .54 rifle will get the job done on whitetail deer.

[Daryl]

I admit that I haven't tried FFFG in a .50 for many years, but I switched my .50 cal. rifles to FF back in the mid 1970's as FFG was more
accurate.  Yes you have to use a bit more to get the same accuracy and poi, but 2F has always provided better accuracy for me in .50
on up. In tests with smaller bores, down to .40, I found 2f to give as good vel. and accuracy as 3F, but needed 10gr. more of it to please me.

[Steeltrap]

I've never shot the heavier .54 cal MAXI. I have a lead bullet maker here in Pa that I can obtain some for a very reasonable cost. The diameter of his .54 cal SAECO is .542.

What powder charge do you use with the heavy 480gr MAXI?  I guess I'm asking what charge should I begin with and then work up to?

Thanks for you help.

[Daryl]

The .54 AND .50 T.C. Maxiballs worked VERY poorly on our moose, from 48" twist rifles.  The bullets were unstable after impact and would not
follow a straight path through the critter, sometimes turning 90 degrees on impact with a rib or other bone and sometimes just from hitting
muscle. They could not be trusted for straight line penetration, thus useless for larger big game. Recovered maxiballs (from multi-shot moose)
usually showed 1/2 the slug missing, or collapsed instead of mushroomed. This was likely due to the huge grease grooves, allowing the nose
and second band to simply collapse into the grooves, instead of expanding. The usual keyholing(tuning sideways) of them also contributed to
zero expansion.
If you need to use a slug, please use a full sized flat nosed slug as from Hornady - or similar.

[longcruise]

your 54 PRB should be more in the 220 to 228 range, although it surely is not going to make any difference.  The maxi in a 54 is going to hurt on your end!!

I only used maxi balls on two animals.   One elk and one mule deer from a TC 50.  I never experienced them changing direction but they didn't offer any killing capability over and above a ball so I gave them up.  One of my grandsons swears by them for deer using a 50 Renegade.   I offered to give him a 58 barrel that is a drop in for the Renegade but he declined!

[stikshooter]

I've never shot the heavier .54 cal MAXI. I have a lead bullet maker here in Pa that I can obtain some for a very reasonable cost. The diameter of his .54 cal SAECO is .542.

What powder charge do you use with the heavy 480gr MAXI?  I guess I'm asking what charge should I begin with and then work up to?

Thanks for you help.

If interested I just cast some Lyman Great plains conicals (456 gr)if interested PM me/Ed

[WadePatton]

...
I only used maxi balls on two animals.   One elk and one mule deer from a TC 50.  I never experienced them changing direction but they didn't offer any killing capability over and above a ball so I gave them up.  One of my grandsons swears by them for deer using a 50 Renegade.   I offered to give him a 58 barrel that is a drop in for the Renegade but he declined!

According to all I've ever heard from Daryl and other larger large game hunters, that Renegade would be a much deadlier weapon with a 58 ball than with any long bullet from a 50.  And it would be lighter.  I hope your grandson never loses an animal to make this discovery on his own.  Balls kill far better than any ballistic calculations can fathom is what I firmly believe now.

[Daryl]

I agree with Wade. The .58 or even a .54 round ball has it all over a .50 slug.
Trajectory and slap.  The hemispherical shape is superior.
The guys we got to switch (most of them) to round balls, stopped losing moose like when they
used the maxiballs. The game branch still closed the season anyway. Too many lost wounded moose
they said.  The maxiballs convinced them that a muzzleloading rifle couldn't kill a moose, even though
we had proved to them that round balls worked.  They would overfly the area with helicopters after
the BP season and spot, then investigate and dig out the maxiballs. It was mostly a willow bush, so
the lost & dead moose were easily spotted.
The maxiball leaves a short slot or slice, not a hole & no blood trail.

[hanshi]

The most awesome blood trails (deer) I've ever witnessed were from a .45 128 grain prb.  I just simply dislike conicals and never used them in the field.  A round ball plows straight ahead and flattens as it does.  And the .50 round ball damage was indistinguishable from the .45 but was truly awesome, too.  At longer distances I like the .50 or the .54.

[wolf]

a round ball is what we always want a conventional bullet to be. after a conventional bullet hits a deer it will peal back and mushroom and make a larger hole. a round ball starts out large. of course it doesn't have the velocity of a high power rifle but it has plenty,,,,,,,,,,

[Daryl]

.54 TC with buttoned barrel. The load was .530" Speer RB and 100gr. Pyrodex, so likely 1,600fps mv.
The moose was 170yards by the laser range finder. The ball penetrated through a rib, holed both
lungs and the heart, between 2 ribs then stopped against the hide - no expansion, none needed.
The moose took off running and piled up dead mid-stride, 40 yards from where he was hit.
This is the moose and the shooter - happened in 2007 right here in BC.
The meat, what isn't consumed in camp, is divided up amongst the guides after the hunt if the hunters
cannot take it home with them.

[Herb]

Steeltrap, you have a mighty fast .50 Green Mountain barrel:  a 180 grain roundball and 100 grains of Goex 2F at 2,130 fps.  Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual shows 1842 fps in a 32 inch barrel.  With 100 grains of Goex 2F from a weight-corrected measure, my .50 fullstock antelope rifle with a 32" Rice barrel averaged 1760 fps for five groups of 22 total shots, average spread of 52 fps.  A 31" Carson Hawken I built with a .50 Green River Barrel averaged 1750/43 fps for three groups of 13 shots.  Total of 35 shots with 100 grain weight-corrected measured loads of Goex 2F averaged 1755 fps with 48 fps spread.

[Daryl]

I'm not sure the old Lyman book is accurate with today's powders, Herb. Check out the .58 ballistics for instance.
With a mere weighed 75gr. 2F GOEX, in a 24" bl., I chrono'd 1,308fps with a .575" RB (they used a .562" & got 1,163fps with 80gr. 2F).  My 85gr. Load, did just over 1,400fps.
They didn't get that 1,300fps until they went over 100gr. 2F GOEX and 32" of bl. and over 120gr. to breech 1,400fps.

[Herb]

I should have added "all new 2nd edition".  In it they used .570 balls with Goex 2F.  100 grains gave 1461 fps, 120 grains gave 1625 fps and 140 grains gave 1773 fps.  But my testing with .50 caliber rifles is what I get with Goex 2F.

[Bob Roller]

The buffalo herds were almost wiped into extinction with conicals and black powder
but loaded from the muzzle the conical is no good???Really?

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

The conicals used in ML's of the (that) day were not particularly good in ML's, Bob, and were mostly Minnie-type.  Today, the problem is with 48" to 66" rates of twist and conicals
 too long for those rates of twist.
Stable (barely) in the air, but not after they hit something of substance.  If you do not get straight line penetration, you have a wounding machine, not a killing one.
Today, when used in the PH Whitworth or the Volunteer rifle, or specific rifles made for them, grooved lubricated bullets work especially well on our moose & as such,
would also work well on buffalo.
The TC Hawkens & others with buttoned 48" twist barrels - not so much.
When dealing with dangerous game, where penetration is of utmost importance, it was found in the jungles of India, that conicals were very poor performers compared
to round balls. This is why conicals did not gain much of a foothold for shooting large game until breech loading was invented and alloyed conicals could be used to good
effect on the dangerous beasts.  Alloys needed for deep penetration, did not shoot well in the muzzleloaders, thus their not gaining popularity until the 1870's.

[Jeff Murray]

barrel length has an impact on how efficiently the powder generates velocity.  Ball and patch tightness does too.  In my 50 caliber  flinter with a 40 inch barrel, 495 ball, 18 thousands ticking patch, 90 grains averages 1815 fps, 95 grains 1879 fps, 100 grains 1943 fps, 105 grains 1958 fps and 110 grains 2043 fps. Increases over 110 grains don't produce enough gain in velocity to make it worth while with this particular load and barrel.  Lyman (copyright 1975) showed results for a 498 ball to be slightly faster in a 32 inch barrel and around a 100+ fps faster in a 43 inch barrel.  The spread in velocity between the two barrels decreased with the increase in powder charge.  Lyman's results showed they could go up to 130 grains in the 43 inch barrel before losing a reasonable increase in velocity with greater powder charges.