Ramrod wear on muzzle. Not buying it.

[Bob Roller]

Turning at any speed can't duplicate the up and down motion of loading
ad for years cleaning with the same rod for years and years,
Bob Roller

[John SMOthermon]

Has anyone ever looked at the ram rod guides on the worn rifles in question?

Would they not show wear as well as the bore, if indeed the ram rod was the culprit... especially if brass.

[rich pierce]

Tool edges present a surface area near zero. The difference between hardwood dulling a 20 micron- thick edge versus a .50 hole is like the difference between trying to break a toothpick with your fingers versus breaking a sledgehammer handle with your fingers. Not at all the same.

I’ll be happy to see any experimental data on altering dimensions of holes in barrel steel using clean or dirty hickory rods.

[redheart]

Rich,
You started this whole thing. I think you should do all of the rubbin.

[WadePatton]

Okay Rich, all due respect for the metal work you do and experience you have, let us take your premise as fact: that one cannot change the shape of the muzzle or any part of the bore of a mild steel or forged iron barrel with a wooden stick.

Now let us add that, in fact: many "egg-shaped" muzzles have been witnessed, and are usually cut-off to restore muzzle concentricity and thereby gun accuracy.

What then would you propose (or anyone) causes these irregularly worn muzzles?  Is something going on with the alloys or the grain structure (iron) that would lend itself to this phenomenon?  Anyone brainstorm here, I just ran out of alternative guesses.

But you see my point, if we accept the history and experience of our fellow men that muzzles can and do sometimes become un-round and less accurate in heavily used rifles, but then reject the notion that it could be caused by hickory, what then are we left with?  If we can think of something, then maybe it could be tested in a scientific manner with hypothesis and testing.

Perhaps there can be more than one cause, but I have zero doubt in the reality of wonky muzzles in high-mileage guns.

[little joe]

Gotta question Have you guys ever saw a rifle shortened a couple of inches at the muzzle? I have, why, do not know.( Hickory vs. Iron) Soft surface wearing a harder surface, sure Look at your auto crank, soft bearing but the harder crank will wear.

[Robby]

People will believe what they want, especially when all the evidence is anecdotal. Where moving wood and metal are in contact nothing ever wears, or wears out, is that it? I seem to remember seeing bolts and pins worn thin and needing tending to where they passed through wood on old farm equipment while the hole in the wood, while slightly largened, was still good to go.
Robin

[David Price]

Thirty five years ago I built a rifle for my twenty year old son.  It was a fifty cal. built by Bill Large.  My son used a hickory rod to load and to clean the gun.  When he was cleaning,  the rifle was leaning against the shooting bench the same way every time.  While he was wiping he ran the patch up and down many times very fast,and he had a tendency to bring the top of the rod toward himself  while he was doing it. In other words he was bending the rod against the same side of the barrel every time he loaded or cleaned.  I mentioned it to him at the time but he was twenty years old and it went rate over his head. 

Several years later he mentioned to me that his rifle did not shoot as good a group as when it was new.  We examined the bore and found the muzzle was worn quite a bit on one side where his rod had been touching during loading and cleaning.  I cut two  inches off the barrel and accuracy was restored.

David Price

[wolf]

well I have to say I always felt this was bogus! and it may be, but, I have been a professional transmission rebuilder for around 45 years, just retired, kind of, in every automatic transmission you have "sealing rings" in the old days they were made of metal. what they do is seal the fluid pressure at a certain clutch pack or band servo bore so that particular component can apply. around the late 1970s they came out with "Teflon sealing rings" when the drum or machined bore in the case where the ring rides and seals it can wear. a Teflon ring is blown tight by fluid pressure and seals, and after a lot of miles will literally cut a deep groove into the steel drum it seals but it is rare for a metal ring to! in fact when a metal ring cuts into the steel it ruins the ring, but a Teflon ring that looks and feels like plastic will look like new after it has cut deep groove into a steel clutch drum! how is this possible? I have never figured it out. so can wood do the same thing to steel,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[rich pierce]

So we have anecdotal “evidence” (folks have heard about it) and a couple examples of personal experience and some analogous comparisons with wagons and such. Rust. Rust. Rust. That’s likely what wears iron moving in wood in wagons. Rust it and wipe off the rust. Rust is friable. Rinse and repeat. Cover with silt, rust, rinse and repeat. High pressure. Bolts can even rust enough to lose dimension is places with no wear.

It would really help to see pictures of these rifle barrel muzzles.


As I recall everybody “knew” many things about flintlock ignition before Larry Pletcher went to work.

In freshing original barrels I see a lot of pitting at the muzzles which are normally coned. That’s why they were often cut off. I’m talking “crawdad holes” as my friend Clint calls them. Over 0.015” deep pits in some cases. That’s too much to re-cut.

When I lap a barrel, 200 strokes with valve grinding compound on a well fitting lap will get me about 0.001” change. So we have a conundrum, or at least I do. I can not remove steel with great effort with bare hickory and can barely do it with abrasive while trying to change dimension. But others can do it without intending to, simply by loading and cleaning their guns.

[WadePatton]

I have thought, since the outset of this thread, that iron oxide could well be one of the grits that becomes embedded in the wood.

We use many different oxides for shaping and polishing metals. Some are in paste form and others are embedded onto paper or other surfaces. Many of them happen naturally in nature.

Time.  Another variable methinks would be hard to replicate, were someone to come up with an alternative explanation of un-round muzzles is the time factor.  The work you are doing Rich is critical for you to do in an expeditious manner--there are only so many hours in each day to move the material you're cutting, by cutter or compound.  If it took you two weeks to choke a bore, you'd likely have to charge more--or in actuality likely not do the work in the first place.

How long is the total time of cleaning and loading (ramming and wiping) of an often shot ML over some 5 or 10 or 25 years of "hard use"? If someone would calculate up some numbers of strokes that might occur over those lengths of time, then a machine could be programmed (no pilgrim is going to volunteer--time) to apply those strokes and then we could have a "lab-grade" experiment.  With that sort of setup a various compounds of fouling, iron-oxide, silt, sand, mud, could be tested as well as different woods and angles of deflection, pressure, etc. 

Sure we could never test it all the variables out, but I still think that the amount of work we care to put into a bore by hand in one day or two, is a far cry from what might normally happen over some period of years, even if fully unintentionally.

Has not someone, somewhere saved a bbl cutoff?  Perhaps microscopic examinations, or other tests, on such wobbled spouts could shed more insight as to their development.  The fresh end would be right there to examine as well.

I fully trust they do exist, that in-fact bores have become misshapen over time, and a simple shortening has restored their accuracy. I'm only looking for alternative explanations for the premise here- that it cannot be done with wood and grit, but that there is another factor universally overlooked.

[little joe]

Thirty five years ago I built a rifle for my twenty year old son.  It was a fifty cal. built by Bill Large.  My son used a hickory rod to load and to clean the gun.  When he was cleaning,  the rifle was leaning against the shooting bench the same way every time.  While he was wiping he ran the patch up and down many times very fast,and he had a tendency to bring the top of the rod toward himself  while he was doing it. In other words he was bending the rod against the same side of the barrel every time he loaded or cleaned.  I mentioned it to him at the time but he was twenty years old and it went rate over his head. 

Several years later he mentioned to me that his rifle did not shoot as good a group as when it was new.  We examined the bore and found the muzzle was worn quite a bit on one side where his rod had been touching during loading and cleaning.  I cut two  inches off the barrel and accuracy was restored.

David Price

I have a 50 Large bbl and have a similar wear pattern.

[Craig Wilcox]

I used to do long range (500-1,000 yd) target shooting, but not with a ML, although wear can happen on any barrel.  For me, BPML shooting was still long range - 200-300 yards.  I was told by my mentor, a U. Maryland history prof, to NEVER use a ram rod or cleaning rod without a brass centering protector in place.

The guys above are right in that a wooden rod can pick up leetle microscopic particles of sand or other grit, and thus polish a portion of the barrel crown.

Barrel steel, or most any steel except AR, is about hardness 5.5, while sand, largely quartz, is hardness 7.  Diamond on that scale is 10, sapphires and rubies 8 -9.

[Robby]

Well there you go, guess you got it figured out then.
Robby

[wolf]

there are a lot of leather strops still around after 100 years of honing straight razors that are long worn out and gone,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Brokennock]

I see good arguments being presented here for both sides. But, I still don't see hickory being hard enough to wear a modern steel barrel out of round. On original barrels maybe not hard enough, but, abrasive enough, especially if dirty, maybe. Like the teflon versus steel ring seals someone mentioned, the wearing material doesn't need to be harder, just more abrasive, teflon maybe "non-stick" but, is it abrasive when used in that application? Sounds like it is.

Has anyone studied the hardness and durability of original barrels compared to modern barrel steel?

Someone made a good point, I think, about the ramrod pipes. If they are soft brass, why aren't they more worn out, before the barrel muzzle gets ruined?

I still wonder about the effect, at least on early or original barrels, of tow, or other cleaning products. If they are abrasive enough to remove carbon deposits, I would think them abrasive enough to wear on steel, and certainly iron.

How many of the guns in question were cleaned with extremely hot to boiling water? Causing flash rust, and then the rust being scrubbed away, we would have a change of dimensions wouldn't we?

There is something more at work here than just hickory rubbing on metal i think.

[Bob McBride]

There is something more at work here than just hickory rubbing on metal i think.

Gremlinius Barreleaticus is my guess. Vicious little critters.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Some of my ml's are fifty years old and have fired thousands of shots with the necessary and corresponding cleaning.  None of my muzzles show any signs of wear that is visible to the eye, nor have they diminished in accuracy.  Technique may play an important role here.  Also, ease of loading may be important.  With my combinations, my loading is easy with just a hickory rod, so my muzzle is touched from time to time, but there is never a rod pressing on it repeatedly, in the same place.  In other words, I do my best to centre the rod in the muzzle as I seat the load.

I have seen original rifles with the brass pipes worn completely through, apparently from the hickory rod, so hickory can cut brass.  So if brass, perhaps iron?  And so forth.

[rich pierce]

Great discussion, folks. After reading everyone’s experiences and ideas I’m at a place where I don’t understand how wooden ramrods wear out mild steel barrels while remaining intact. Not denying it couldn’t happen, but no hypotheses really seem strong. The grit hypothesis is interesting but doesn’t entirely convince me; why the rod remains intact or why it’s more effective in cutting barrel steel than abrasive lapping compound. Doesn’t mean it’s not convincing to others.

[wolf]

maybe someone has a photo of a worn barrel from being loaded with hickory,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Marcruger]

Rich, you may also be dealing with a case of "ramrod #32" for a particular rifle.  Easy replaced when worn down.  Not saying that is the answer to the question, just that an unworn ramrod means little. 

I believe grit embedded in a rod could be a possibility.  One reason modern cleaning rods get great discussions going, especially the plastic coated ones holding grit.  Some are for - some against. 

Frankly, I cannot see any other reason a muzzle would be worn oval.  It's either something going in, or something coming out.  I don't believe a patched lead roundball coming out will cause it.  Therefore, in my mind, I'm left with the ramrod. 

Likewise, why would someone cut an inch or two off the muzzle?  Must be damage on that end.  It's the "low pressure" end.  Again, I am left with ramrods as the culprit. 

I use a bore protector any time possible.  Even on my ball starter. 

Don't have great enlightenment here.  God Bless,   Marc

[John SMOthermon]

I have zero experience with bores being out of round from use.

But Rich states that the bores of several guns he has worked on show rusting at the muzzle.

In my experience dealing with rust, it seems to be softer than un-rusted steel or in the case of older barrels iron..

Which could be the reason some barrels become egg shaped.

I do believe that the possibility exist that wear could be associated due too the presence of rust.
It being softer than the clean substrate metal therefore over repeated use and mis-use of cleaning rods / loading ram rods could potentially wear the metal in the muzzle area.

As stated above , silica is a hard substrate.   

200 + or - strokes with valve grinding compound could be compared too several shots being fired,swabbed then the reloaded over and over.

Then eventually the barrel being cleaned consisting of several more strokes of the rod.
 Over an extended period of time with a dirty ,gritty improperly used rod on a rusty, pitted bore especially if it's not a modern steel barrel,I think it's possible to remove a thousand or two over a decade or so.

I always wipe my wooden ramrod after using it, I'm always surprised at the amount of residue it holds after a long day of shooting a woods walk.

But, I've never seen any wear on the bore other than it becoming slightly polished around the muzzle. 

[coupe]

I have read these posts and have come to the conclusion no-one is taking into account the fine dust, dirt and abrasive material on our hands transferred to the ramrod as we clean the bores. And yes you do leave particles on your ramrod unless you wash your hands every time before you use the rod. If at any time you believe it will not wear the bore at some degree then you don't believe jb bore paste, comet cleanser, valve lapping compound, diamond paste ect. won't do their job either. Just saying abrasives wear and they imbed into the wood and work on the metal long before the wood gets worn. the gent talking abt. wooden farm implements is spot on!! About thimble wear, one only removes and inserts the rod not slides it back and forth so they don't see as many moves in a cleaning cycle as the bore, therefore less wear.
coupe

[Marcruger]

One other factor.  I was taught that bore smoothness is important, so do all you can to protect that. 

I am a "rod flipper".  By that I mean I keep the business end of my rod up when not in the bore.  I've seen people with a range rod pull it from the bore and stick it on the ground.....jag down.  I mentioned it to one fellow, and he basically told me to mind my own business. 

I am not sure what the old boys did with their rod if shooting more than one shot.  Maybe they stuck the tip in the dirt in between shots?  I wasn't there.  No idea.  But it would explain some grit being involved. 

God Bless,  Marc

[redheart]

Good point Marc!
I wouldn't be surprised if there were times when the "Old Boys" figured reloading quickly was more important than worrying about whether you got a little, or lot of dirt on your ramrod.