Finding a restful balance between tradition and preference

[RMann]

    My back is a little sore from wrestling some "little too heavy" rounds of black locust into my truck bed... So good chance to slowly peck out a favorite quote, and toss out a general question that has been percolating in me for the 6 months I have been enjoying my start in your impactful sport.
    Here is the quote from GK Chesterton: "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors.  It is the democracy of the dead.  Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."
    I'm familiar with this quote in the context of woodworking: design, joinery, wood selection, etc.  But it is relevant in so much, even in accessing culture, morality, ethics, and the flaming issues of today's politics.  But happily sticking to this forum's purpose, it is a relevant quote.  But I still have to live with what I think, and what I like. Sure, "Tradition is the democracy of the dead."  So those "old votes" count a lot!  I admit, as a new beginner, my preference and opinions are really insignificant.  But I still like em!  And my first few builds are just for my enjoyment, and for my endearing sons, who will love anything that comes from my hands. So where is the comfortable balance between tradition and preference?  And I expect some of you are too historically "boxed" for me, and others too loose and free. I know I'll have to find my own balance point, but I'd like other's input, to save me from doing something foolish.
    I recognize that some matters are pretty well fixed, in the geometry of lock, trigger, and guard in relation to the breech, and their overall architecture with the lock panels, wrist, comb, etc.  Plus the overall slimness (within a little range) to achieve the graceful lines that invite handling.  When it is right, it just looks right, and to try to be "creative" just messes up the marriage of form and function that has stood the test of time. And of course, LOP and drop...
    But with my first build I struggled with my choice in furniture. I bought a kit for a general representation of a particular area, but I didn't care for either of the choices in lock plates. So I made my own, maybe a blend of others, but I thought it was a more pleasing balance/compliment to the lock.  So I was pleased with my decision, but have similar considerations with my next build.
    I like the lines of a "southern style" long rifle, and plain and simple appeal. I smile though at the term "poor Boy" after buying a swamped barrel and Chamber's lock.  But I stumble over a washer (or two) for a lock plate.  It seems seems so discordant with the corresponding lock on the other side. I would like another option, that fits my concept of balance.  But again, I don't want my vote to foolishly over rule the weight of tradition- "the democracy of the dead".
    So what d'yall think?  Thanks for reading my first rambling post.... if you got this far.  And thanks for any wisdom passed on to a 63 year old new enthusiast.

[rich pierce]

RMann, are you familiar with our library of originals? Check the Tennessee https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=364.0 and North Carolina https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?board=335.0 areas.

[Bob McBride]

All that ungrounded in history 'I think this looks better' will fade over time and you will come to love the American Longrifle as it is and settle into a region and period that appeals to your sense of aesthetics and seeing all the variations, fall in love with a particular gun and seek to copy it, or you'll build one that could've been built in that shop had you worked there, and been trained by that Master, with the parts available to you......or you won't. In which case you'll build fantasy guns. Like Johnny Cash, you'll put a 64' Chevelle flat grill on a Firebird body, and weld on a Barracuda rear end because that combination looks best to you, and the title will weigh 60 lbs. And you'll have built a car.

Either of those is A-ok.

Welcome aboard.

[Coastal Plain]

I guess you have to answer for yourself the question of "why am I building this gun?" 

The contemporary art/craft of building long rifles has many facets.  Very few people are doing to make a living now days. Are you building it to gain a better understanding of the craftsmanship of the past?  To understand how our forefathers made a living? To recreate precisely a fine piece of American folk culture? To learn new skills? To create something simply to pass down to your kids? etc.

Anyone can buy a gun already made by one of many contemporary builders out there, hang it on the wall, and maybe take it out a few times per year hunting or target shooting.  You are choosing to build one so that puts all the emphasis on your reasons why. 

Anyone can buy $1k worth of parts and turn them into a $400 gun.  What do you expect to get out of your longrifle building journey? 

If you want to precisely recreate the guns of the past, then I would expect you are going about it wrong.  Study originals and copy them point to point.  If originals don't do it for you, find a contemporary piece that you admire and try to copy that.  Even some of the greatest contemporary fine artist start by copying the work of masters to learn different techniques.  Then once they have shown that they have the fundamentals mastered, they can go and create something of their own, with their own style, with their own voice. 

If you are simply building for your own enjoyment, and not the approval of others, do whatever you want and be happy with it.  But if you are constantly looking to improve, it would be difficult to become a master of the craft without understanding the fundamentals of what makes the American long rifle so unique. 

If you don't like the look or feel of particular parts, I have no problem with swapping them out.  Just keep the look and flow of the piece consistent.

[TommyG]

Bob gave some great advice - find a school, style or builder that appeals to your needs and start from there.  I personally like to see a bit of imagination and artistic license, and many of the fine builders here are very good at incorporating it into builds without straying to far from what the original actually looked like.  This is all within reason, of course.  Some great advice I received was that you will want to make your story/build believable, was it a possibility or could it have been built that way back in the day, hence the imagination aspect.  I did this a couple of years ago with a short barreled Moravian gun.  I followed the basic architecture and carving found on RCA 43, but built it around a 26" barrel with a few other minor changes.  I really enjoy the challenge that this brings to a build, and it's fun.  But I also enjoy the challenge that staying true to the original form brings as well. 

[Bob McBride]

Bob gave some great advice - find a school, style or builder that appeals to your needs and start from there.  I personally like to see a bit of imagination and artistic license, and many of the fine builders here are very good at incorporating it into builds without straying to far from what the original actually looked like.  This is all within reason, of course.  Some great advice I received was that you will want to make your story/build believable, was it a possibility or could it have been built that way back in the day, hence the imagination aspect.  I did this a couple of years ago with a short barreled Moravian gun.  I followed the basic architecture and carving found on RCA 43, but built it around a 26" barrel with a few other minor changes.  I really enjoy the challenge that this brings to a build, and it's fun.  But I also enjoy the challenge that staying true to the original form brings as well.

I agree. Some of my favorite rifles are merely ‘plausible’ (a minimum requirement for me) and a real art unto itself.

[J. Talbert]

To be a good writer one needs a good command of vocabulary, the meaning of the words, and their proper use.

To build nice longrifles you need a good command of their vocabulary also.  Without a good understanding of the features, their function, and aesthetics, you’re far less likely to assemble a gun that you or anybody else will find appealing.

Jeff

[BOB HILL]

Well put , Jeff. Well put.
Bob

[Marcruger]

And books are a great way to increase your longrifle vocabulary.  Our ALR library as well. Also, nothing like holding originals in your hands at shows.  God bless, Marc

[RMann]

Thanks for the generous comments!  You all are nicely pointing me to a higher road, but giving me the liberty to take a lower path. So the steering and inspiration is helpful to me. I am not familiar with your library of originals, and I will eagerly examine them.  As a kid I read all the books I could find on the Indians and mt. men.  So I always wanted to build a old time rifle and get back to the woods. But I had no idea of the depth and texture of the world I casually stepped into.  But I soon recognized that the old rifles, similar to the old time designs of musical instruments and watercraft, are the best blend of form and function.  The architecture of each, still sings today, and when they are messed with, my instincts instinctively reject them.  So I think I will tend to embrace the high road, even if I may be limited in emulating it well. To call this a hobby, which it is to me, seems a little flat, when it opens up the world you all know so well.  Anyway, thanks for the inspiration w/o talking down to me.  But I still like Johnny Cash...

[RMann]

Wow, that library of originals!  I got a run, but clicked on one just for a peek, but recognize it will be so helpful. I'm glad my stock blank is blank, and God willing, I have time to study and plan for an informed winter build.

[Mike Lyons]

To be a good writer one needs a good command of vocabulary, the meaning of the words, and their proper use.

To build nice longrifles you need a good command of their vocabulary also.  Without a good understanding of the features, their function, and aesthetics, you’re far less likely to assemble a gun that you or anybody else will find appealing.

Jeff

That's a great post Jeff. 

[Hungry Horse]

 I will just say your approach to individualizing your build is the best in my opinion. Making, or remaking a part to change the appearance of a muzzleloader is better than cobbling a bunch of miss matched parts together. Also your choice of a SMR is a good one as well. Most mountain smiths individualized their work in some small way. You just have to be careful about doing too much. If you “individualize” every part, you lose the regional flavor.

  Hungry Horse

[EC121]

You might have to build more than one.  Build the first one to develop the mechanical skills:wood work, stock architecture, layout, inletting, etc. needed to do the second one.  The second one can be used to develop the artistic design and implementation skill set.  Might not be so overwhelming that way.  This would fall into the "building your vocabulary" category.

[hanshi]

I've been interested in "the old ways" ever since I was a kid.  So muzzleloaders came naturally to me.  Money is a big deal when one starts to emulate, more and more, the life and times of our remote ancestors.  This means finding a compromise is sometimes the only way to love the sport.  Rifles that are just "in the _____ style of" satisfy my needs.  As a result something in the "custom" or "semi custom" category is often the only choice. 

Many here are well researched reenactors down to the guns they own.  But others get complete satisfaction from shooting/hunting with the technology and basic style of an historical period.  So whether you want a realistic copy of an extant longrifle or a close copy of specific geographical type (not a specific builder) learn as much as you can and do what pleases YOU; ignore the things that pleases others if what you want is your satisfaction.

[Nordnecker]

I'll take the bait. That is a very thought provoking quote. I like talking about ideas more than specifics. I'm glad you found our library. I've spent many hours there.
So, from what I gather, you built a longrifle from a kit and want to build another. You are wrestling with the confines of your limited knowledge and your desire to put your signature on a future build. I understand that.
Perhaps you just haven't found the gun that gives you just the right balance between subtlety and "tradition" and enough character to challenge you. Only you can find the solution.
While on your search, Have you tried engraving? To me, that's an outlet that gives a good balance between merely copying the shape of an object and giving it LIFE. It satisfies the desire to copy and create at the same time. It certainly is cheap enough to try and fail (on some practice plates) and gain a little experience without taking up too much space or resources.
Best of luck on your quest. Let us know what you decide.

[RMann]

I really appreciate all your responses, and feel guilty not to respond to each one. Yeah, that Chesterton quote is really fitting. If I would simplify it in my own words: "Tradition is the democracy of the dead, and their votes count!" It is good to keep in mind, without being pharisaical.  No, I readily copy, and have no drive to be especially creative. Even in style, I'd rather be a hen than a wood duck drake. (But I marvel to God when I see one)  I'll choose Shaker furniture over Queen Anne, a hundred fold.  But I sure admire and appreciate the detailed artistry of the golden age of flintlocks.  So I am awed at the workmanship I feast on through this site.  But engraving? Maybe a tiny bit on my third gun? (DV)  It sure is a nice touch, and when understated at least tempts me a little. But yes, your library will inform and lead me. I'm reminded of the training used to detect counterfeit bills: Handle the real thing a lot, and fakes are obvious.  But my handling in person is really limited, but my eyes are getting a lot through this site...  So, thanks. And when I start putting things together down the road, I'll be more informed and more grounded in my choices.  My first build was so rewarding.  The process was surprisingly exposing to my person, not just skill wise, but thought and patience as well. So I really learned a lot, and am hooked...inspired for more!

[Bob McBride]

Hey Rmann, I see you’re in Ohio so you should look up some of the yearly longrifle shows in KY and PA. Putting one in your hands is so valuable for understanding what you see on the page.

[flinchrocket]

He is probably close to the Log Cabin Shop.

[RMann]

Hey Bob, Kentucky or PA?  that would be fun... Maybe I could drum up my brother to go with me.... And yes Flinch, I am just 1 hour north of the Log Cabin, and I've visited a few times, but a little shy to ask to handle any guns.  But I do hope to hang out for their Early American Trades Fair on Oct. 9-10.

[Bob McBride]

Hey Bob, Kentucky or PA?  that would be fun... Maybe I could drum up my brother to go with me.... And yes Flinch, I am just 1 hour north of the Log Cabin, and I've visited a few times, but a little shy to ask to handle any guns.  But I do hope to hang out for their Early American Trades Fair on Oct. 9-10.

Either one. Probably PA has more shows. KY has CLA which I love and Lake Cumberland Longrifle Show and a few others.

[TommyG]

Guys are absolutely right.  Get to some shows and check out some fine contemporary work or better yet, original work.  My understanding of what a reproduction of this art should look like jumped ten fold once I seen original guns.  I live in Eastern PA, we have some great shows, unfortunately just not in Covid'20.  Another great resource is museums, you have to do some research ahead of time to see what they have in their exhibits.  Also, you are doing it already, you are here!!!  The best resource and tool available to direct you where you need to put your time & effort.  I have always found the best builders here willing to share knowledge.  Many times you don't even need to ask as things have already been discussed or there are tutorials on the subjects.

[Ian Pratt]

We ought not to regard "tradition" as a limiting factor in our gunbuilding -  the traditions of creativity and innovation are huge parts of the greater heritage of gunmaking. If not for those, every gun would look and function like the very first one built.

Fantasy is the opposite of reality, right?  So, absolutely not picking on anybody but what do we think about the term "fantasy gun ? Apart from the more obvious real / not real comparison, to me the term suggests that a line has been drawn at some arbitrary point in history, and any work done after that date which doesn't closely correspond with an existing example from the other side of the line is cannot be valid. The longrifle building that's happening right now is a point in an evolution , not a phenomena that should be considered separate from earlier gun building.





 

[Stoner creek]

To add to Ian’s point, there was some serious evolution going on with these guns within the relatively short period of the fourth quarter of the eighteenth century. There’s no reason why it cannot continue today.

[Marcruger]

Ian, you fit in that rare category of great artists that can deviate quite a bit from "the norm" or "traditional", and the rest of us sit back and drool over your functional art.  You have created your own language that is obviously "longrifle", breaks with pure tradition, but is widely appealing.  Hershel did the same before you, and there are a few others.  That said, I know you can also build a completely traditional gun if you want to.  I think a newcomer learning the traditional language early simply informs what they do later.  It reminds me of some monster bluegrass players that started traditional, but then created their own style of music.  Just thinking out loud, and please keep sharing your work with us.    Marc