Seeking Guide to Lock Differences and Quality

[Brian Stuart]

I'm new to flintlocks and wondering how I should start learning about contemporary lock options. Things like lock speed, flint longevity, design flaws, build quality, etc. Is there a book that'll explain the common lock designs? I read the thread on the Rice Nock lock and that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for, I think.
I ask because I'm thinking of doing a couple kit builds in the future and want to use the best quality locks I can afford.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Brian:  I'm afraid I don't know of a treatise on locks other than doing a search through the threads here, and there are many.  This sort of information generally comes through exposure and experience.  And people's opinions expressed here, including mine, are quite subjective. 

[JPK]

Brian asks the question that I have often thought about. If there were to be made a book on flintlocks that covered in detail how and why a good lock works it would be a great service to many of us. Details of angles, length and position of parts in their relationship to guide the buyer and builder of locks could drive the development of locks finer then has ever been seen! This group of craftsmen has a couple of people that could gather and sort this into print that would would cement their place in history.

[Hungry Horse]

 I think the big reason there is no volume on the absolutes of flintlocks is because everything in a flintlock is a compromise. A spring has to be strong, but not too strong. A frizzen must be hard, but not too hard. The throw of the cock must be short, but not too short. And. Much of this depends on the size of the lock. Writing such a book would IMO be a thankless job, destined to create discord every time it was mentioned.

  Hungry Horse

[rick/pa]

Eric Bye from the NMLRA has written a book on flintlocks but I can't personally endorse it since I've never read it. It has good reviews but I'm sure some one here has read it and can comment with more knowledge than I can bring to the table.  If you're a member, you can buy it direct.  EDIT:  in fact, I just ordered it myself. I've been shooting flintlocks since the early 60's but old dogs can still learn new tricks, especially when my learning curve seems to be a circle. I'm constantly learning things I already knew but seemed to have forgotten over the years. 

https://www.crazycrow.com/muzzleloading-guns-and-gunsmithing/flintlocks-a-practical-guide-for-their-use-and-appreciation

[Brian Stuart]

It makes sense that there'd be a lot of subjectivity, but at the least I'd hope to find a description of design characteristics. Like what's the difference between a Siler and a Late Ketland?

[Craig Wilcox]

Sounds like a pretty good book, has a 4.8 star rating on the reviews.  Not too pricey.

Was wondering about the same thing whilst looking for a pair of locks for some pistols that are in the works.

[Bob Roller]

Flint locks vary from superb to the provoking of profanity.
The mechanism that is unseen when installed in the gun
IS the lock.Some of the very latest English locks were the
ultimate in externally generated ignition systems and they
used mainsprings with heavy preloading hooked to the tumbler with
a link.It has been said these locks were made by fine lock makers
that were determined to obstruct the oncoming percussion ignition
that were coming on strong.
Bob Roller (former lockmaker)

[Ron Scott]

Brian, You are not going to find much in the way of a comprehensive description of lock characteristics. Even among professional builders, there are those who are going to desire certain locks because they are cheaper, or require less modification than others.  I suspect your best approach is to first decide what you are building, research the available locks that are correct in style and then ask for opinions on which is most desirable.  Having conducted a regional gun makers fair for 25 years and taught classes in several venues, I have heard most of the arguments that exist.

[bob in the woods]

As Ron said, you should first determine what style, time period of gun interests you, and that will narrow down the available locks that would be appropriate.

[Keb]

I probably wouldn't know a good lock from an excellent lock and I'm no one to argue the merits of any lock. I'm happy when they work without much fuss. I can only go on my experiences with the major lock makers since the 80's. I have never had a problem with any Siler, Davis, M&G (Zorn or Pete Allen) or even L&R. However, I did have a problem with breaking main springs on a certain high quality Early Ketland lock. I think they replaced 4 or 5 springs before telling me I must be doing something wrong. I can't say they were wrong but I had removed hundreds of main springs in my flintlock life & never had a problem. I read & took their advice on removing & replacing the spring using a spring vice I got from them and still broke a spring. I finally got a spring to not break and moved on. I've used other style locks from this maker with wonderful success & would recommend them to anybody.

[stude283]

Eric Bye's book is also available from the NMLRA at at the same price,since .
Crazy Cow seems to be low on stock.

[hanshi]

Locks surely do range from the superb to utter $#@*.  My guns have locks from several makers and none is problematic.  I must have been somewhat lucky having only a couple of minor complaints in all these years of using flintlocks.  Most problem locks can be traced to some imports where quality control is mediocre.  But even those often give excellent service.  American lock makers seem, to me, to offer a bewildering variety of locks that are uniformly good to excellent.  I'd think there's likely a lock available that would be appropriate for just about any style, period or purpose on modern built flintlocks.

[Bob McBride]

I'd use Chamber's and Kibler first and others if you need specific patterns you can't find there. Others are very good as well. Once you settle on a Style/Period/Gun builder/School to emulate or copy ask here on the forum which lock or locks you should use in that build. You'll get pointed in the right direction by some very experienced builders.

[B.Barker]

I think flehto has done some test with different locks. Not all the locks that are out there but several different styles and a couple different makers. He has articles that he has written someplace on the web but can't remember the name of it right now. My personal likes for large locks are Jim Chambers early Ketland and Jim Kibler's new round face. Kibler's has the tighest tolerances and I have one on a rifle that I'm working on but haven't any experience yet with shooting. Smaller locks I like the old large Siler and late Ketland from Jim Chambers. Once again Kibler has a late Ketland also that should be a really good lock but I have yet to use one. The locks form Chambers are usually very good locks. Some times you will find one with a light main spring probably because they are cast. However Jim is very good about fixing things on his locks. I've have yet to have a Chambers lock that is a poor sparker. I'm not sure if Jim Kibler uses cast springs or machined. Chris Laubach has a Germanic lock that is completely made by CNC machines with forged springs. I have seen one and they are beautiful locks but once again no experience with it.

[A.Merrill]

   I think Jim Chambers posted something on here years ago about what it takes to make a good lock.   Al

[rich pierce]

It’s a very wide topic.

Evolution of French flintlocks.
Evolution of Dutch flintlocks.
Evolution of English flintlocks.
Military and sporting flintlocks.
Fine locks and inexpensive trade flintlocks.

The question about the difference between a Siler lock and a Late Ketland lock for example. A Siler lock is based on an export quality rifle lock from “Germany” around 1770 or so. A Late Ketland is representative of locks made by the Ketland enterprise in England in the 1810-1820s era I guess.

What is noticeable right off? The Siler has a detachable faceted pan. It’s a little larger than many later flintlocks made for sporting rifle use. It has a spear-shaped tail. The Late Ketland has an integral, rounded pan. It’s smaller. The cock is proportioned differently. In general a smaller lock with less mass and a shorter throw can be faster.

[Mike Brooks]

I have forty years of experience building flintlock rifles and fowling guns. After nearly 380 guns Here are the fastest and most dependable I have used: Chambers Early Ketland, Chambers Late ketland, Chambers Dale ....somebody or other? and lately Larry Zornes Christian's Spring lock. Also at the top but in my opinion not quit as fast but just as dependable are the Chambers flat german lock, Chambers virginia and english locks Davis colonial, Davis English trade gun lock of Jack Brooks design (I think) Davis late english, Chambers Large siler lock and the Zornes classic. I haven't used any of the kibler locks yet. I have never used a left handed lock I was satisfied with.

[Darkhorse]

I know nothing about the newer NC made locks that are being made now. Mostly because they are not offered in lefthand. But I do know about Jim Chambers large siler. This is a quality lock and many use them as they come from the builder with no modifications at all.
But the large siler is one that responds well to lock tuning. Careful tuning will result in a lock that is smoother and faster, and more important, is more consistent, which aids accuracy, than one straight from the seller. I like the fact that I can tune my locks myself. But many owners will send their locks out to be tuned by a pro. Most likely the result is better than mine.
I'm pleased with my results. I think all gun owners should attempt to improve their locks because it will help to better understand the rifle and be more confident in it.
Probably all the better locks out there have been tuned to some extent.

[Brian Stuart]

The question about the difference between a Siler lock and a Late Ketland lock for example. A Siler lock is based on an export quality rifle lock from “Germany” around 1770 or so. A Late Ketland is representative of locks made by the Ketland enterprise in England in the 1810-1820s era I guess.

What is noticeable right off? The Siler has a detachable faceted pan. It’s a little larger than many later flintlocks made for sporting rifle use. It has a spear-shaped tail. The Late Ketland has an integral, rounded pan. It’s smaller. The cock is proportioned differently. In general a smaller lock with less mass and a shorter throw can be faster.

That's very helpful, thank you.
I suppose the minutia aren't that important at this stage, but when I read about how some locks have roller bearings and others don't, or that thread on the Rice Nock lock, I wonder what I don't know. I mostly want something reliable and of good quality for hunting. Given the kits I'm looking at (Kibler, Chambers, Track of the Wolf), a Chambers or Kibler lock is going to be my choice.

[Clint]

Today's American made locks are as good and probably better than locks made in the 18th and early 19th century. The question about general quality of locks is similar to the question about which rifle barrel is better. The truth in most cases is 'who is shooting the rifle and what are you using for sights". There are a lot of builders who write in, asking why their lock works fine out of the gun but won't hold full cock in the stock, lots of different answers. The lock is only a part of the gun. how it fits in the stock, the location of the touch hole, the configuration and exact location of the trigger and pin, all have a lot to do with the way a gun behaves. The shape of the cheek piece can make the difference between a rifle that is comfortable or down right painful to shoot. Pick the style that is right for your build from the top U.S. lock makers and build the rifle care[size=78%]fully.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]P.S.   It's a flint lock rifle, not a gas turbine engine.[/size]

[smart dog]

Hi Brian,
The choice of lock depends first on your objectives for a gun and how historically consistent you intend to be.  For example, a Chambers late Ketland lock is not appropriate for a Rev War period rifle but a Chambers early Ketland would.  A round-faced English lock is not appropriate for an English fowler after 1760 or so unless the gun is a cheaper trade or livery gun.  Of course, those kinds of considerations are irrelevant if historical accuracy is not important to you.  Some locks are fast, some reliable, and some are both, and there are design features that contribute to those characteristics. In addition to the thread on Rice's Nock lock, I discuss a number of those features that make good locks and what constitutes poor quality in the threads below:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60628.25
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=61114.msg613031#msg613031

With respect to lock design and evolution, John N. George's 2 books on English guns provide a lot of detail about the features and design changes.   

dave

[LuVerne Schumann]

Dale ....somebody or other?

Dale Johnson

[Mike Brooks]

Dale ....somebody or other?

Dale Johnson

There it is!

[heinz]

Search on "larry pletcher lock speed" and you will get a free education and some great insights into lock performance.  LOck styles are a whole different ball of wax.  Find a style that is historically correct for what you want to build.  If you are going for target accuracy the gold standard is a Bob Roller Manton.  But they don't make those anymore.  I think Jim Kibler's CNC'd small lock is close to as good for target work.