Author Topic: Scottish Deer Rifle  (Read 5399 times)

Offline blienemann

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2020, 07:42:09 PM »
Feltwad, when I saw your post, I Googled for "rifle with bayonet bar" and "German rifle with bayonet bar", and came up with a few examples.  One was much like Taylor's post, a Model 1810 (New Pattern Jaeger) ca 1828 in the Royal Armoury at Leeds, War Gallery Object Number: XII.2282, and several German rifles 1750 and later with similar bars.  I also found several bayonets that might match such a bar.  http://bayonetsonline.com/german-bayonets-for-sale.html has examples - an 1810/20 Hirschfänger bayonet, and several more, with slot in cast hilt.

At the same time, I wrote to friends across the Pond with lifetimes of museum and arms experience.  I just heard back, as follows:

"The bar on the side of the muzzle of the rifle by William Landell was indeed for the fitting of a bayonet. The fact that the rifle was made in Scotland would suggest it was for deer stalking of course, but in Scotland at about the time this rifle was made, there was a strong interest in the volunteer or militia movement, what was later known as the Territorial Army; part-time soldiers whose primary role was for home defence in times of a foreign threat, leaving the professional army to go abroad as necessary.

There are many surviving examples of British military target rifles which were purchased privately by members of volunteer units in order to take part in inter-regiment and other military-style rifle shooting competitions which became very popular during the century. This sporting half-stocked rifle with an octagonal barrel 39 inches long would match the preferred length of the musket then in British military service, while being rather longer than usual for a sporting rifle.

Deer stalking was (and remains) popular in Scotland, and there was a greater chance that a member of a Scottish volunteer corps might have equipped himself with a rifle mostly for game shooting, but capable if necessary, of doubling as a military arm when fitted with a bayonet.

I’ve seen German jaegers with bayonet bars, intended for dual hunting/militia purposes. So, a suggestion of the owner being a militia officer is certainly a possibility. I know of a number of continental European military rifles in the Royal Armouries collections with bayonet bars of very much the form of that on your rifle. All of these take a proper sword bayonet with a solid cast-metal hilt (usually brass or a high-nickel alloy), with a groove from the pommel forward into the side of the grip whose profile matches that of the bar of course, and a spring catch to retain them in place,

The only other thing I can offer would be a sensible insurance policy on a dangerous game rifle for an intrepid explorer/hunter type… perhaps boar on the continent, or big game in India?"

Hope this adds to your really special rifle!  Now we know why it is muzzle heavy. Thanks again for sharing.  Bob


Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2020, 10:34:33 PM »
"The bar on the side of the muzzle of the rifle by William Landell was indeed for the fitting of a bayonet. The fact that the rifle was made in Scotland would suggest it was for deer stalking of course,

A rifle like this, possibly fitted for a bayonet, could have had a dual purpose a century earlier, stalking the invaders from the south.
 
On a lighter note, thanks for the research Bob, I appreciate it as I'm sure everyone else does also.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Daryl

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2020, 08:57:36 PM »
THAT is indeed a nice rifle, Feltwad. Thanks for posting it's pictures. The muzzle, at least the lands, appear to have been filed/beveled.
39"- long for a stalking rifle of the period, however, if dual purpose, which a barrel bayonet mount would indicate, might explain the length.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2020, 09:42:01 AM »
Thank you gentlemen for your  replies on the rifle has I have been in contact with several   historian collectors  who have not seen a fitting  like it and  until I see a rifle  the same by this maker I will say   my theory is  more suitable to this rifle but will also keep an open mind .
Feltwad

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2020, 02:51:32 PM »
I have one last question on this rifle. Are there any witness marks in the whistle notch to show that a screw was tightened to fix whatever device was fitted to the rifle? I cannot see any in the photos.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2020, 07:49:04 PM »
I have one last question on this rifle. Are there any witness marks in the whistle notch to show that a screw was tightened to fix whatever device was fitted to the rifle? I cannot see any in the photos.
The only thing is the notch on the extension  and nothing else in my original  request I do not think I mentioned the set trigger  .I have enclosed three images  two are the fitting and one the set trigger
Feltwad






Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2020, 11:16:32 PM »
Thanks FELTWAD.

I do not think this device is for mounting a bayonet.

If you had a bayonet fixed to the rifle before taking a shot at a deer, or Englishman ;), it would increase the weight of an already heavy rifle substantially. If the bayonet was not mounted and the shooter wanted to dispatch a wounded animal, he or she would have to draw out his bayonet, fix it to the rifle and perform a bayonet charge over who knows how great a distance, run up to a possibly thrashing wounded animal with very sharp hooves and "run him through". Why not reload and fire another round.

Any of us that went through U.S. Army BCT will remember the DI/Instructor saying that a fixed bayonet affects the accuracy of the weapon.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2020, 09:58:10 AM »
I still stick to my theory that it is a fitting  to fix some sought of a rest before taking a long shot because of the weight of the muzzle end even today some stalkers use a hazel thumbstick  when taking a shot.
Feltwad

Offline Osprey

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2020, 03:26:52 PM »
looking at it from a pure practicality angle, here's my guess.  Seems odd for a shooting stick support on the side, why go through all the trouble when a notched stick works fine and resting on the side would through off balance at the shot?  I'm thinking more of a hanger, perhaps on the side of a carriage or saddle?  Scabbard of some sort to cradle the back and that  bracket attached to something on the front to hold the rifle securely going over rough, bouncy terrain until ready to take off on a stalk?
"Any gun built is incomplete until it takes game!"

Online Pukka Bundook

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2020, 03:49:29 PM »
All,

For a start, no-one had been shooting at each other for generations when this rifle was made. (English /Scottish etc.)
Re bayonet, the fitting looks too light for that, and Sir Ralph -Payne Gallwey gives detailed  instructions on how to dispatch a wounded stag with a dirk, in one of his books.
Bayonets were somewhat fashionable for  sporting guns more than a century earlier, but not at this time.
I see this fitting as for some kind of a rest for target work.  The rest can attach at the side, but still bear up under the rammer for actual support.
Too many solid bayonet bars are in existence, to consider this for such a task.

I too would like to see another rife with this bar, Feltwad!....Muzzle rests for target work Were used, but never seen this type of fitting.

Must also say rifles were carried in cases on a journey, not hooked to a carriage, plus by this date, trains were used a great deal to get to the destination.

Best,
Richard.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2020, 04:28:21 AM »
For a start, no-one had been shooting at each other for generations when this rifle was made. (English /Scottish etc.)

Well, that's disappointing. Is there no respect for tradition anymore?

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2020, 04:00:38 PM »
For a start, no-one had been shooting at each other for generations when this rifle was made. (English /Scottish etc.)

Well, that's disappointing. Is there no respect for tradition anymore?

Kent

Well there is nothing like a sense of hummer

Feltwad

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2020, 04:58:01 PM »
I am with Taylor on this. I once saw a boar hunting rifle that had a similar devise on it for a bayonet, which unfortunately was not with that rifle. But the rifle was from the 1840's and was a halfstock and long but not as long as the rifle presented in this post.
Rob

Online Pukka Bundook

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2020, 05:12:36 PM »
Borderdogs,

If I wished to stop a half-shot boar with a bayonet, I'd want a Solid bayonet bar, not a slim thing that only attaches at both ends. 
It would take a lot to hold a boar at a distance...

Westbury,

LOL!!
(These days, Scots and English settle for kicking each others heads in at soccer matches....)

Offline heelerau

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2020, 12:43:23 AM »
I wonder if the chap who commissioned the rifle had some odd idea about some extra feature he wanted, hence the bracket.  I am wondering if we will ever truly know what it was for.  It might have been for a light sporting  knife? A muzzle cap to protect the crowning and foresight?
Keep yor  hoss well shod an' yor powdah dry !

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2020, 05:48:09 PM »
Pukka,
That maybe so but what I saw on that rifle was very similar to what is on the posted rifle. The fellow who was selling the rifle said it was for a bayonet and explained that the whole bar fit into the handle of the bayonet. The bar had a notch like the one on the posted rifle except the one I saw was not angled like the posted rifle. He said that the unusual length of the rifle was to keep your distance.

And if I wished to stop a half shot with a  rifle I either would have taken a back up rifle for the extra shot or climbed a tree!
Rob
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 10:12:22 PM by borderdogs »

Offline blienemann

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2020, 05:41:19 PM »
Hi all, check out Runastav's current post on a long gun with bayonet or short sword mounted to side of barrel for another example - under Gunbuilding at https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=62033.0  Bpb

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2020, 06:34:07 PM »
That is all very interesting, thanks for posting the link.

I would make the obvious point, that rifle from Norway is a military rifle.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline blienemann

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2020, 01:36:09 AM »
I thought I would make one more pitch for a multi-purpose hunting / military rifle - made up for a member of the Scots Territorial Army, part time soldiers who protected the homeland while the Regulars went abroad.  This was popular in the mid 18th century in Scotland, and similar arms were stocked up around the world about that time.  The men I consulted were Curator Emeritus of the Royal Armouries, Keeper of Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries, and Staff from the National War Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh Castle.  I do admit though, that we fought a couple wars to be independent of these Brit folks!

I just see a complete ca 1800 Baker rifle with bayonet bar and sword bayonet - much in the vein of those mentioned previously, at https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__A_TOWER_SERVICE_PATTERN_1800_BAKER_RIFLE_AND_S-LOT496339.aspx.

The suggestion is that the rifle is in part for hunting, and in part for war  - at home if necessary.  And something cool to show to your buddies at drill.






I have learned that this interesting rifle has been discussed on various blogs, and of course respect all thoughts.  It may have taken on a life of its own.  Thanks, Bob

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2020, 02:02:25 PM »
Blieneman  thank you for late answer to my Scottish deer rifle and yes I can see your image and  explanation  with a close resemblance  to a bayonet attachment .Your image is the best so far  has I had some  good and silly   answers has one person said it was a poachers gun and the device was for fixing a flash light ,but it takes all kinds .
Thanking you
Feltwad

Offline Robby

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2020, 07:40:05 PM »
I'm sticking with the sword mount. Heck Pukka, lots of people, people here, use technology long after it has become outdated. ;D
Robby
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