Author Topic: Scottish Deer Rifle  (Read 6208 times)

Offline Feltwad

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Scottish Deer Rifle
« on: August 19, 2020, 12:36:13 PM »
Came across this rifle a couple of months ago by William Landell of Glasgow. It is a 14 bore octangle Damascus twist built in 1840  4 grove rifling barrel and its length is 39 inches   with a 3 position sight of which 2 are leaf sight  and also a  set trigger .I am sure this gun was built for stalking deer on the Scottish hills  but with its 39 inch octangle barrel the gun is muzzle heavy  but fitted has part of the barrel at the muzzle end is a fitting  similar to a bayonet fitting which I believe is for fitting a stick support when sighting in too shooting the quarry . I have been restoring and shooting muzzle loaders  for many decades and it is the first time I have come across this device  maybe some members have.
Feltwad




Offline Molly

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2020, 01:42:37 PM »
Now that IS interesting!  Offset ram rod?  Damascus?  Is it real Damascus or just a Damascus finish?  Looks real.  I'd put that one in the "seemed like a good idea at the time" category.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2020, 02:40:48 PM »
Yes it is defiantly Damas twist
Feltwad




Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2020, 02:52:47 PM »
Now that IS interesting!  Offset ram rod? 

I do not think the ramrod is offset. The rib, to which it is fitted, looks to be squarely on the bottom flat of the barrel.
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Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2020, 03:01:46 PM »
That is correct
Feltwad



Offline Avlrc

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2020, 03:06:46 PM »
Now that IS interesting!  Offset ram rod?  Damascus?  Is it real Damascus or just a Damascus finish?  Looks real.  I'd put that one in the "seemed like a good idea at the time" category.

I thought it was offset as well,  kind of an optical illusion.  Neat Rifle.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2020, 03:13:03 PM »
It is a great looking rifle. The device, with the dovetail flat, fitted to the side of the barrel is unique as you pointed out. It was not put there just for the $#*! of it.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2020, 03:27:16 PM »
Very good to see you put this rifle up for viewing here old Pal,
I'm hoping you get some answers.
It's a lovely stub twist barrel, and well made rifle.  I
I've not seen anything quite like this bracket.   Bayonet lugs yes, but this is not one of those.
Unusually long, so a support makes sense.

Fingers crossed someone here will know something!

Are you still hammering woodies and crows?

Richard.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2020, 04:54:47 PM »
Hi,
I think it is a handle so the servant can carry the muzzle.  ;)  The notch and length of it suggests something slid over the round rod with a spring loaded catch to slip into the notch.  If it was just for attaching a rest, I doubt it would need to be so robust.

dave
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Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2020, 04:56:59 PM »
Perhaps it is used to mount a bullet starter, given the orientation of the dovetail flat.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2020, 05:59:04 PM »
Very good to see you put this rifle up for viewing here old Pal,
I'm hoping you get some answers.
It's a lovely stub twist barrel, and well made rifle.  I
I've not seen anything quite like this bracket.   Bayonet lugs yes, but this is not one of those.
Unusually long, so a support makes sense.

Fingers crossed someone here will know something!

Are you still hammering woodies and crows?

Has much has I can Richard , there are plenty of  cusharts  but they are not my thing I only shoot them when requested by the farmer I think it is a waste of good meat just to feed the fxes , but crows yes they are the worse for  damage to crops and livestock 
Feltwad

Richard.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2020, 06:10:39 PM »
Perhaps it is used to mount a bullet starter, given the orientation of the dovetail flat.

Noting the sharpness of the crown makes me like this idea.  Or is it something else?
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2020, 06:14:31 PM »
Makes me think of all the crazy shooting stances being experimented with in those days for Creedmore and such. I think it’s some sort of unique foot mount, early bipod or some other prone shooting long range stabilizer. It’s obviously designed with a quick release but would be a very stable solid mount.



« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 06:17:38 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2020, 07:53:44 PM »
What a lovely rifle.  I agree with Richard that the barrel is twist steel...the term Damascus is used loosely these days to mean anything from pattern welded to stubs twist, which is a mistake.  Damascus steel comes only from iron ore mined and forged in Damascus (Middle East).

I suggest that the fitting may have been to attach a hunting sword or bayonette.  It is similar to the Baker rifle, a copy of which I made some years ago and provide photos for comparison.







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Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2020, 10:16:21 PM »
I do not think that whatever the device is for, it is substantial enough to be a bayonet mount. I still think it is for a bullet starter. I could be wrong though, in fact I'm wrong quite often according to my wife.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2020, 01:13:47 AM »
Perhaps "substantial" is in the eye of the beholder, but it looks substantial to me, and I would also think it was a mounting device for a hunting sword, something that could help dispatch a downed but thrashing deer [with sharp antler tines] without getting too close to the animal. The notch would keep the hunting sword from pulling off and staying in the deer when the rifle was withdrawn. Shelby Gallien

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2020, 05:52:19 AM »
Yes it would be a wild variation to the standard muzzle extension. I like pig sticker now...need one of those for my hog rifle.

You'll have to have one made up for it Feltwad.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2020, 05:28:57 PM »
Thank you everyone for your replies but the more I look and think of this extension piece on the side of the muzzle leaves me in no doubt that this is a one off for fixing a stick stand to steady the muzzle when taking a long distance shot just the same has today when some  stalkers use a  Y shape thumb stick
Feltwad

Offline Robby

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2020, 06:39:56 PM »
I'm voting for the hunting sword.
Robby
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2020, 06:47:19 PM »
I think I'm in the Feltwad camp as I'm not sure about the hunting sword. Certainly could be, but applying the coup de gras by hand to a Buck is sketchy even at the best of times. I would think they'd do as we do today and just set there for a half hour and wait before approaching. Maybe call a buddy, Google what in the world 'Jentacular' means, and generally start thinking about how you're going to drag that baby out of that holler.....


Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2020, 10:09:01 PM »
There is one very practical and truly necessary application for this device we have not discussed. That would be to secure one's glass of Glenlivet rather than putting it on the ground and having it contaminated or worse, stolen by one of your shooting buddies.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline gibster

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2020, 11:22:52 PM »
Probably not the right answer, but maybe they attached their sling to it. It looks like there is an attachment point behind the trigger guard but I don't see anything where you would typically see a forward attachment point.  It's further forward than we normally see, but I guess it would work.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2020, 12:29:17 AM »
Feltwad--Why don't you contact The Lewis Drake Co of Murray, Kentucky who handle these antique single and double big bore rifles and ask them if they know what the device on the barrel is.

sales@drake.net

270-753-7200
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2020, 12:20:14 PM »
I have been in contact with some of the world renowned   antique weapon connoisseurs and the answer is the same  they have never seen it before and could not give a diffident answer, maybe in the future some one will come forward with a image exactly the same.
Thank you
Feltwad

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Scottish Deer Rifle
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2020, 02:13:34 PM »
Well, in addition to having a very nice rifle, you have something unique.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964