Black powder storage

[Dennis Glazener]

Several years ago I bought some bulk black powder near the NSSA range in Winchester VA. It came in 5 lb paper bags. I want to store it in something other than paper bags but I don't have enough empty powder cans. I have some plastic coffee cans and wondered if ok to use those. Also some steel coffee cans but they have plastic tops.

I have had black powder in plastic cans but wondered if it is treated to avoid static electricity.
Dennis

[Molly]

Goex as you probably know currently comes in plastic.  One of the members of our shooting group says there is one brand of beer that comes in a over sized aluminium "bottle" with a wide mouth.  He says it will hold about a pound and they have screw on caps.  Think of all the fun you can have getting your powder squared away!

[MuskratMike]

Dennis: I believe I have seen for sale heavy round cardboard "kegs". Supply outfits that sell custom cardboard packaging might have something that will work.

[577SXS]

Go look on Uline's wed site. They have just about everything container wise. 5 gallon bucket with lid should work.
https://www.uline.com/BL_8151/Fiber-Drums

[Bob Roller]

I have 2 empty goex cans I can send and maybe others on the
forum can send some and get rid if the problem.
Bob Roller

[Dennis Glazener]

Go look on Uline's wed site. They have just about everything container wise. 5 gallon bucket with lid should work.
https://www.uline.com/BL_8151/Fiber-Drums

You know I have a couple of large fiber mailing tubes that I believe will come close to holding what my empty can's won't. I have had them for years knowing as soon as I got rid of them I would find a use for them.

Thanks for the idea.

Bob thanks but I believe I can take care of it now.
Dennis

[Scota4570]

https://www.bayteccontainers.com/screw-top-metal-cans---accessories--screw-top-metal-cans.html

Maybe??  There are other suppliers.

[porchdog48]

I vacuum packed some for a friend in plastic bags using food vacuum packer.

[Bigmon]

Dennis,
I have close to a dozen empty cans, without actually going to the garage and counting them.
They are yours if that helps?
Brad

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,
I have close to a dozen empty cans, without actually going to the garage and counting them.
They are yours if that helps?
Brad

Brad,
Thanks for the offer but I believe I have enough between thecempty cans I have and using the two fairly large mailing tubes I have.
Thanks for the offer.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

I also have about 8 long mailing or shipping tubes that steel bars were shipped in and anyone that wants them can have them'They are now in our tool shed and in new condition.There is one that is longer and all are heavy material.
Bob Roller

[WadePatton]

Have some dryer sheets handy if static ever shows up.  Most likely on dry days, less likely on humid.  Wipe 'em around on stuff and static goes away. Must be magic.   

Not that static is a challenge to coated powders, but that it can be a hassle when stuff won't move around without affinities for things where you don't want it to go.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I think you are on the right track with the cardboard tube idea . I remember buying 8 pound cardboard kegs of bullseye and red dot powder in cardboard kegs. They must be stored in a dry environment. The plastic containers that powder comes in now is specially made and treated for containing gun powder. I would not use just any plastic container .

[Hungry Horse]

Cast up some lead containers for that powder. It worked for Lewis&Clark.

  Hungry Horse

[Mad Monk]

Main thing with black storage is to watch any hot temperatures.  At about 150 F you will see active chemical changes in the powder.  No real problems with low temperatures.  Paper or cardboard containers should have some sort of moisture barrier film on or in them.  Paper and cardboard will easily transfer moisture.  They are to a certain extent hygroscopic.  You may recall the old smokeless containers with a thin aluminum foil covering the thin cardboard container. 

[Curtis]

Cast up some lead containers for that powder. It worked for Lewis&Clark.

  Hungry Horse

   It certainly did!  And then you have the makin's for balls!

Curtis

[bob in the woods]

Main thing with black storage is to watch any hot temperatures.  At about 150 F you will see active chemical changes in the powder.  No real problems with low temperatures.  Paper or cardboard containers should have some sort of moisture barrier film on or in them.  Paper and cardboard will easily transfer moisture.  They are to a certain extent hygroscopic.  You may recall the old smokeless containers with a thin aluminum foil covering the thin cardboard container.

Wow!    That surprises me.  I always thought that BP was extremely tolerant of temp changes because of it's make up. I suppose the effected ingredient is the oxidizer .

[wolf]

like mad monk said, watch out for moisture in the cardboard tubes. I have been a handloader for about 5 decades, they used to use paper canisters but the had them coated so moisture wouldn't get to the powder. I have saw people put smokeless powder in coffee cans and it get ruined. I have had to pour more than one can out because of that. I like the idea of vacuum packing, but i would try to put it all in the plastic powder containers if you have enough,,,,,,,,,,,,

[bob in the woods]

like mad monk said, watch out for moisture in the cardboard tubes. I have been a handloader for about 5 decades, they used to use paper canisters but the had them coated so moisture wouldn't get to the powder. I have saw people put smokeless powder in coffee cans and it get ruined. I have had to pour more than one can out because of that. I like the idea of vacuum packing, but i would try to put it all in the plastic powder containers if you have enough,,,,,,,,,,,,

My friend has a vacuum packing contraption which I believe seals the openings of the bags with....heat !    Probably not a good idea .

[davec2]

I made up a couple of the lead containers others have mentioned......not that I'm suggesting that they are better or easier than using old powder cans or purchased new cans .....but the Lewis & Clark method has always fascinated me ........from an old post of mine.....







Details for these are here.......https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4128.msg38439#msg38439

PS.....having had the same powder storage problem myself, I purchased a bunch of the round metal cans with a screw lid shown in the link by Scota4570. They worked great.

[Mad Monk]

Main thing with black storage is to watch any hot temperatures.  At about 150 F you will see active chemical changes in the powder.  No real problems with low temperatures.  Paper or cardboard containers should have some sort of moisture barrier film on or in them.  Paper and cardboard will easily transfer moisture.  They are to a certain extent hygroscopic.  You may recall the old smokeless containers with a thin aluminum foil covering the thin cardboard container.

Wow!    That surprises me.  I always thought that BP was extremely tolerant of temp changes because of it's make up. I suppose the effected ingredient is the oxidizer .

Has to do with the sulfur.  A fraction of the sulfur can go from a solid to a gas without going through the liquid stage.  And this vapor formation starts well below the melting point of the sulfur.  In the gaseous state the sulfur can be highly reactive.  When I tested powders for moisture content I had to use an oven that did not go over 150 F because as soon as the sulfur started to turn to a vapor it gave a false moisture reading.  Once the small amount of sulfur changes to a gas it when it can react slowly with the potassium nitrate which drops the burn rate and muzzle velocities.
 

[davec2]

Mad Monk,
Does this sulfur vaporization occur just at 150 F and higher or does storage at say 120 F also start to degrade the powder ?

[Mad Monk]

Mad Monk,
Does this sulfur vaporization occur just at 150 F and higher or does storage at say 120 F also start to degrade the powder ?

With black powder storage, below 150 F, the chemical stability depends entirely on ingredient purity and moisture content of the powder during storage.  Generally a moisture content of less than 1% is thought to be ideal. Once over 1% moisture content you may begin to see change.

There will be a second part to this a little later on.

[smylee grouch]

Thanks again Mad Monk for some great info. This would be important to know for anyone living in our hotter sections of the country.

[Mad Monk]

With grains of black powder almost all of the water (moisture) is trapped in the surface film on the grains produced by glazing and polishing.  That skin consists of potassium nitrate and moist of the minerals (ash) from the charcoal.   Higher ash charcoals give more hygroscopic powder grains.

The second part of this.  When you grind sulfur into a fine powder and expose it to air it will pull oxygen from the air and form a single molecule thick layer of sulfur oxide on the surface.  They if these particles are added to water the sulfur oxide dissolves into the water creating sulfurous acid.  H2SO3.  That is not an environmentally stable chemical.  The sulfurous oxide will pull oxygen from the air to form sulfuric acid.  H2SO4.  That is an environmentally stable chemical.  Which then goes on the attack and break down potassium nitrate.  Burn rates drop and powder combustion solid residue is increased.

This is sometimes slowed or stopped by the alkaline minerals from the charcoal "ash" content.  The charcoal ash is mainly potassium carbonate which will neutralize the acid formed.  The powder ceases to be chemically stable when all of the mineral ash (potassium Carbonate) is used up.  The powder decomposition then speeds up becoming "self-accelerating" as it turns rather acidic.  At that point you replace the percussion cap with a propane torch.

But if the powder was properly formulated with high purity ingredients and then protected from any excess moisture in the air the powder will stay good almost indefinetly.

This thing about the acid formation I also had gone over when a local now defunct lead acid car battery manufacturer ran their lead smelter with no filters or scrubbers and kicked SO from reclaimed batteries out their smelter stack into the surrounding housing.  I spent n evening going over all of this at a meeting between the battery company, the Federal EPA and a local environmental group.  Even though it is described in detail in any industrial environmental guides.