Kasenit Unavailability and Bob Roller

[davec2]

Bob,

I saw this part of your post in the recent heat treating thread (which I didn't want to hijack):

"I have been using my dwindling supply of Kasenit on these triggers I make and am NOT happy with Brownells or Cherry Red.  I would like to get some more Kasenit but will not pay a gougers price for it or anything else."

My supply of Kasenit is also dwindling so, in examining MSDS information, I think the only major difference between the other available surface heat treating compounds and the old Kasenit is the presence of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate.  So I have purchased some sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate (available by mail order, 1.1.pounds for ~ $20) and will mix it with some of Brownells surface hardening compound.  If this works as well as I think it will, I'll send you some.  I don't want you to run out as long as you're still making triggers.....

[Bob Roller]

Davec2,
Thank you and you make me wish I had taken chemistry in high school.
Keep me and the rest of us posted.

Bob Roller

[rtadams]

8-25-20

davec2

If you would share the amount of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate you added to the Brownells surface hardening compound and any other details of your experiments I would appreciate very much.

Best Regards.

Robert

 

[davec2]

Robert,

I just ordered a tub of the surface hardening compound from Brownells and the 500 grams of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate.  They both should be here in a week or so.  According to their respective MSDS documents both Cherry Red and Brownells are made up of Potassium Nitrate and Chromium Oxide III.  According to the old MSDS for Kasenit, it was ~ 46% sodium ferrocyanide.  So my thought right now is that I will mix the Brownells and the sodium ferrocyanide about half and half by weight.  And because the Brownells and Cherry Red are basically the same thing, the addition of the sodium ferrocyanide should work with either one.

I'm away from home at the moment but will try this out when the materials arrive and I can get back to the shop.  I will report progress.

[rtadams]

8-26-20

davec2,

Thanks for the reply and sharing your information.

Best Regards,

Robert

[Bob Roller]

The Brownell's and the Cherry Red harden well enough but they leave an ugly color
that looks bad.
Bob Roller

[flinchrocket]

I used the cherry red on some screw heads that when finished were rough as a cob.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I use a product called "Hard 'n Tuff" which I was given about 40 years ago by a mill worker.  After quench, a green/black scale needs to be removed, so I use a wire wheel in my drill press, which burnishes and leaves a grey finish I can live with.

[helwood]

Greetings,
I did a little searching on the internet for supplier  of Sodium Ferrocyanide decahydrate found WEGO and Alfa Aesar.  I was wondering where you found yours.  Thanks,  Hank

[davec2]

Laballey.com

[helwood]

Thanks much.
         Hank

[davec2]

Taylor,

Over the years of using Kasenit, I have gotten much the same thing.  After the quench in brine, the surface of the part is covered with a dark, not-to-adherent coating that comes off easily with a powered wire brush leaving a pleasing grey finish.  And the part is hard.  I think the "ugly color" Bob mentions is just a tough oxide layer.  The primary constituent in Cherry Red and in Brownells surface hardeners is, of all things, potassium nitrate !!!  So I think the operative mechanism is that the melted KNO3 is imparting a certain amount of nitrogen at temperature to "nitride" the steel surface.  However, since potassium nitrate also contains a large percentage of oxygen, it contributes to the hard scaling that Bob is talking about.  The sodium ferrocyanide has no oxygen but contains only sodium, iron, and triple bonded carbon / nitrogen.  So you get a nitrocarburizing processes.....both carbon and nitrogen are diffusing into the steel surface to harden it.  By just mixing the Brownells stuff with the sodium ferrocyanide there will still be KNO3 present, but not in the same concentration.  I'm betting the hardening will be much improved but I will find out if the KNO3 still leaves a heavily oxidized / scaled surface.

Will keep you posted.

[flatsguide]

Ha Ha....sounds like rocket science to me, but I would be interested in your results of the fifty fifty mix you mentioned.
Cheers Richard

[henry]

Dave I have to agree regarding the potassium nitrate as a likely source of the hard scale and would go so far as to suggest not using the Brownell product.
When I taught Chemistry I used nothing but potassium ferrocyanide for case-hardening flintlock parts and never encountered any failures.
Cheers, Henry ( in the UK)

[Bob Roller]

 I have problems with the Brownell's and the Cherry Red with the black color
It is smooth but ugly and the parts are hardened.The Kasenit leaves a nice color
and I use a nitrated quench of 5 gallons of distilled water and a pound of potassium
nitrate.I can't make a set up like RAT made and some of the others have done and
shown here.
Bob Roller

[STJ1954]

I had a can of Kasenit from years ago and went to look for it when I was building a Hawken, couldn't find it. I also bought Brownells surface hardening compound. Worked well for internal parts. I did research on MSDS sheet and I see a hand written copy that list Sodium Ferrocyanide . One MSDS sheet , typed copy list Potassium Ferrocyanide and I bought a pound. Also one sheet listed Carbon Black as an ingredient. Went to the shop this morning and pulled 2, 1/4" screws out and polished the head. Hit one with a file to make sure it was mild steel. heated both bright red, dipped one in Brownells and reheated about a minute, cherry red and quenched in tap water. Did the same to the other and dipped into Potassium Ferrocyanide. Results was Brownells was solid grey and Potassium Ferrocyanide colors were mixture of greys and almost black spots. Both cleaned up smooth, and both a file wouldn't cut. Wonder if the extra ingredient in Kasenit was Carbon Black?. Maybe some Nitrates in the water would give some better colors. I ordered a pound of Sodium Ferrocyanide and a pound of bone charcoal from Lab Alley. Will play with this some more.

[flatsguide]

When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
 Cheers Richard

[davec2]

I'm glad there is interest in this and, Henry, you may be right about not mixing the two.  We'll find out.  There is something else in the original Kasenit and the sodium ferrocyanide is only 46% of the mix.  It may also have some carbon black, but not 54%.  I don't have any capability in the way of an analytical chem lab, but there may be some "old school" ways to determine what the heck the other ingredients are in Kasenit.  Might be some borax and / or even sodium chloride.   Will keep after it.

It worked so well and I'm sure it was taken off the market because some bureaucratic mental midget saw the "cyanide" portion of the chemical name and had no idea that sodium ferocyanide is not only NOT poisonous but they put it in table salt as an anti caking agent.

[jerrywh]

I have been using potassium ferro cyanide for 55 years. Works great . I think you can buy it on Ebay.  Make sure it is not FERRI cyanide. It must be FERRO cyanide. The ferro cyanide will not poison you.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Potassium-Ferrocyanide-Trihydrate-500-Grams/183719831149?epid=2301624593&hash=item2ac68e266d:g:BUwAAOSwXIFcgYei

[davec2]

Thanks Jerry!!!  Do you use it the same way you use Kasenit? Heat, dip, reheat, quench?

[Dennis Glazener]

When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
 Cheers Richard

Richard
Do you know how or what temperature/color he tempered his frizzen? I have Kasenit and will need to harden a frizzen in the not to distant future and would like to try his way of hardening my frizzen.
Dennis

[flatsguide]

Dennis,  I don’t know what the temperature was but it was not a bright red, more of a dull red. I wish I could be more specific, but this happened over 40 years ago.
Good luck Dennis.
Cheers Richard

[Bob Roller]

When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
 Cheers Richard

Richard
Do you know how or what temperature/color he tempered his frizzen? I have Kasenit and will need to harden a frizzen in the not to distant future and would like to try his way of hardening my frizzen.
Dennis

Dennis,
This is the same method I used to harden a frizzen and when I got it out of the oil
I cleaned and polished it and using a fine tip propane torch I held the flame in one
position at the tip of the frizzen and watched the color change until it went to a straw color where the
pan cover and the frizzen joined and then dropped it back into the oil can to cool a bit faster than open air cooling.
Get it back out and wipe it dry,install it on the lock and see what it will do.Ihave used this method for uver 50
years and no reported breakage and good fire.
Bob Roller

[helwood]

Greetings,      Davec2 thanks for the headsup for laballey.com, ordered some today.     Thanks, Hank

[jerrywh]

Thanks Jerry!!!  Do you use it the same way you use Kasenit? Heat, dip, reheat, quench?

It is used exactly like Kasenite even smells the same.