Author Topic: Breech plugging the barrel  (Read 4965 times)

jdavis

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Breech plugging the barrel
« on: August 27, 2020, 02:50:48 AM »
I have cut threads for barrels with a lathe and threading tool. I’ve got a little older and don’t seem to have the necessary reflexes for the lathe anymore. Is there any reason why I can’t use a tap to cut needed threads?

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2020, 03:18:55 AM »
I suspect that's how it was done 200 years ago. I guess if you have a lathe it would be no problem to make a plug of sorts to protect the inside shoulder from the end of the tap ?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 03:49:57 AM by flinchrocket »

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2020, 03:41:03 AM »
Anything can be done but I would not try it without a lathe. 

You will want a shoulder to make a seal.  You  need to drill the minor diameter.  Since the shoulder need to be square to the plug you will need to grind the front of the drill bit flat.  Running the tap in square it tricky to do free hand.  You will need a plug and bottoming tap. 

I find it easier to use the lathe to make the minor diameter and the shoulder. Since you are making a shoulder you can make a relief cut to break the chip at the shoulder end.  That makes threading an internal thread easier.  You can stop the cut by throwing the lead screw out of engagement when your dial indicator says to.  Run in the slowest back gear.  That minimizes the need for reflexes. Use the lathe the cut the threads to "close".  Chase them with the bottoming tap, use the tailstock to make the tap run true into the started threads. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2020, 03:45:02 AM »
I have cut threads for barrels with a lathe and threading tool. I’ve got a little older and don’t seem to have the necessary reflexes for the lathe anymore. Is there any reason why I can’t use a tap to cut needed threads?

I use taps. But you need to grind a tap that will cut the threads to the bottom of the hole. So you need a tap to start the threads and then one to cut threads to the bottom of the recess. My "extreme bottoming tap" is pretty short since I did several barrels before I bought a tap to start the threads so I did not have to repeatedly regrind the bottoming tap.  But the front of this tap needs to be flat, if you run a tap into the inner shoulder with is not flat you may cut grooves in the face of the inner shoulder. So you will need to modify the more taperd tap used to start the threads as well.  You can see what occurs at the start of this video on fixing the problem without a lathe, though a lathe comes in handy for making the cutter.
When starting from scratch I use a boring bar, or a 2 flute end mill, the cut the recess for the threads and the inner shoulder. I also start the tap with the lathe so the tap starts straight.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2020, 03:50:38 AM »
Quote
I suspect that's how it was done 200 years ago.

That's how I did it 15 years ago when I needed to. Wished I had a lathe but I didn't. If you have a lathe and know how to use it, seems to that would still be the better choice.

Dale H

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2020, 04:55:30 AM »
Threading with a tap with lathe is less stressful than internal threading with a lathe tool.
For me anyway.


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Offline davec2

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2020, 05:36:33 AM »
jDavis,

I like everything Dan Phariss told you but I am not quite so much of a perfectionist.  I bore the minor diameter with the lathe and then use a standard bottoming tap (set up in the lathe (just to make sure everything it true & square) turning the tap in with a tap wrench either with a live center in the tail stock or with the tap started in the tail stock chuck.  If I happen to hit the machined step with the tap (which I often do), I'll go back with the boring tool and clean up the surface.  To make the breach plug bottom on the step to the bore, I use the lathe to turn off the last thread or so to the minimum thread diameter.  If you are making a breach plug from bar stock, this is very easy to do.  If you are modifying an existing fully formed breach plug, you can make one of these tools.....

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59843.msg599665#msg599665

If I have cut the threads on the breech plug made from stock with an adjustable die (to get a good tight thread fit) I also relieve the last thread on the plug with a cut off tool again to the minor thread diameter.  All of this makes fitting easier and you can still get a good face seal against the step in the bore.  Just my version.......seems to work fine.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 07:46:24 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Long John

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2020, 04:33:19 PM »
jDavis,

I am with Davec and Dan.  For several years I did a demo at the Gunmakers' Fair where I fit a commercial breach plug to a commercially bought barrel with noting more than hand tools and a bench vise.

I use a common twist drill bit that is a close fit inside the female thread of the barrel breech that has been ground flat across the cutting end and then reshaped as a scraper.  I put it in a hand brace and clean-up the step that should exist where the breech threaded hole stops and the bore starts. 

On the plug I use a hand file and file down the lead thread down to the minor diameter so there is no thread for the last 1/16th inch of the plug journal.  I polish the end of the plug down to 600 grit, soot it and thread it in.  Upon removal, if there is no removal of the soot on the breech plug face the journal is too short and I file the back end of the barrel breech down a few thousandths and retry.  Repeat if necessary. Once I have soot removal all around the edge of the breech plug journal I start filing both, together to get the plug to line-up with the barrel flats.  It might take me an hour to get the plug fit right and proper.  Of course, when you are doing a live demo in front of 30 or 40 people you have to be prepared to cheat a little.  And I will admit that one year I was glad I was prepared.  But this is the way I have breeched all the guns I have built.  Keep in mind that I am NOT a professional.  I am a hobby builder.

When I proof the barrel I always put soapy water on the breech thread end to check for gas flow.  I have never had one that showed any sign of leakage.

You don't need all the fancy machinery.  If you have it, good for you.  But you can fit a breech plug without it.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2020, 07:41:45 PM »
A lot of time on parts that need to be threaded close up to a shoulder I will cut the threads with the tool moving away from the headstock. The lathe will be cutting in reverse and the tool will be moving to the right. There may be a YouTube video that shows this technique.
Cheers Richard

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2020, 08:07:51 PM »
At one Dixon’s fair we visited Bolton Gun Works I think. They had old breeching tools including piloted cutters to make the shoulder. It was pretty cool.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2020, 08:48:56 PM »
A lot of time on parts that need to be threaded close up to a shoulder I will cut the threads with the tool moving away from the headstock. The lathe will be cutting in reverse and the tool will be moving to the right. There may be a YouTube video that shows this technique.
Cheers Richard

Joe Piezinsky,  shows this method on youtube !!!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2020, 01:21:19 AM »
I fit breech plugs the same way that Davec2 mentioned. I square the seat with a boring bar and remove the first thread on the plug for thread relief. In fact my original 1863 Springfield barrel is breeched the same way.
Mark
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Offline BJH

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2020, 01:56:32 AM »
I do them the way Don Getz taught me. The end of the breech plug needs to be chamfered to just short of the bottom to the threads. At about a 87 degree included angle matching the drill used to drill the minor dia of the threads. Then I fit the plug to the barrel till the end of the plug gently to firmly scrunches into the internal shoulder. And the shoulder of the plug fits up tightly to the rear of the barrel. Think of how the plug and seat of a globe valve works. I’ve never had a leakage issue in heaven knows how many barrels I’ve breached. Needless to say I use a bottoming tap first to be sure the threads fit all the way to the internal champher.
BJH

jdavis

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2020, 04:17:19 AM »
Thanks for the replies and great info. Dan, I watched your video and learned a few good tricks. I fear you have planted a seed in my brain concerning putting a forge together. But, that’s anther project. That being being  said and taking advice into account, I will chuck the barrel into the lathe and cut the minor, relief and ledge. Then use a starting / bottoming tap to finish the job. Of course use the tail stock for tap alignment. In the past I have aligned the barrel for axial runout in the lathe headstock at chuck end and outer headstock (cat head) end with dial indicators. I initially placed dial indicator probs on the barrel lands to determine and correct runout at each end. A very tedious and time consuming practice. Later, I made caliber specific plugs that fit snugly in each end of the barrel to facilitate the checking of runout. I am for the most part self taught. How do you’ll set barrel run ought? Again, thanks.
Jdavis

Offline heinz

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2020, 03:14:35 PM »
I do ine like BJH. I learned the technique from bench gun shooters at Friendship.
kind regards, heinz

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2020, 06:39:03 PM »
 Oh, come on you guys man up, and tell the little woman that you are going buy  a big expensive toy, that will need a bunch of expensive little toys to make it work. Remember many muzzleloading guns were built in the back woods, often by smiths that didn’t know what a metal lathe was. So crawl down off your high horse, and examine a few antique breech plugs, and then tell me how precision a breechplug, and barrel threads have to be. They are other short, course threaded, sometimes crooked, and quite often intrude into the touchhole, or drum, area. Hand tools are plenty precision enough to far exceed this kind of work, and still produce a good safe seal. They’re just not fast, or as much fun, and its pretty hard to brag about your hand taps, and dies.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2020, 06:56:10 PM »
Just because you can does not mean you should.

Period gunsmiths did a lot of low quality work, it was never good enough back then and it does not justify copying it today.    I would never shoot some of the junk I have seen or sell it to anyone who might try to shoot it.  Based on some originals I have seen I bet they had more catastrophic failures than we do today.  I would never consider such work good enough.  We know better now and have better tools. 

Lathe or not it should be done correctly. There are many ways.  Using a lathe is the best possible way but is obviously not necessary.  Having your gun com apart in your face, or worse someone elses face is unthinkable.  The breech plug is the one operation that absolutely must be properly fitted.

Keep it in mind that if one does a crappy job of fitting a breech plug, and a customer is injured or killed, a lawyer will take everything you have. 

If you are serious about gunsmithing you need a lathe.  It does not need to be expensive or fancy.  My daily driver is a 10" southbend that was made for the US Navy in 1941. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 06:59:51 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline davec2

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2020, 09:46:39 PM »
jdavis,

On the subject of setting up a barrel for work in the lathe.....I started out using a 4 jaw chuck, putting a tightly turned brass plug in the bore, and spending time with a dial indicator getting the barrel on center.  Before doing all of this, on the far end of the head stock, I had made up a bunch of PVC collars that slid into the head stock hole and had different bore diameters.  I would pick one the right size to keep the far end of the barrel very close to center.  One day, I didn't have the time to monkey with the four jaw routine and the barrel I needed to breech was a straight 13/16".  I had my 5C collet arrangement set up in the lathe, so I just used a 13/16 square collet to hold the barrel on center at the working end and the PVC collar on the outside end of the head stock.  This worked great and it was quick to set up.  Eventually, I was having some precision wire EDM work done for my normal rocket propulsion test work and I just had the wire EDM house cut a bunch of square collets into octagonal collets.  These give a better grip on the barrel and are a little more precise.  Here are some pictures:
 








PS  Hungry Horse......I get exactly what you are saying.  While I agree with Dan and Scota that one should do the best job possible, one can worry too much about perfection where it is not really needed.  I think JerryWH, and others, have shown pictures of a plethora of original breech plugs that would cause some here to regurgitate on their keyboards.  Nonetheless those plugs had long service lives, didn't rust into oblivion, and didn't blow out to blind or kill the operator.  Now I'm not saying that a sloppy fit is a good idea, but on the other hand, I have read innumerable posts about how imperative it is to "seal" the breech against 10,000 to 20,000 psi hot gasses by tightly butting a flat plug face against a steel shoulder.  In my rocket engine designer and fabricator life I have to ABSOLUTELY seal very hot gasses (i.e.~6,000 degrees F) and at pressures on the same order of magnitude or the engine will destroy itself in milliseconds.  As a consequence, I am familiar with a myriad of ways to get that type of hot gas seal.  I can tell you unequivocally that a flat plug against a stepped shoulder cannot do that job.  Black powder breech plugs appear to seal well for three reasons:  1) The pressure they see is not sustained but builds and then dissipates in milliseconds.  If you were to put 10,000 psi in the bore and keep the pressure that high while you leak checked the breech plug with a soap solution, it would be blowing bubbles like a two year old at a birthday party. 2) After the first shot, some powder particulate residue will pack into whatever little gas path is available and it makes a good seal itself.  3)  The gas that gets past the not very efficient (even if very well done) face seal on the plug has to get past all the threads to make itself apparent.  Each time the gas goes around a thread, it dissipates in pressure as it is forced to turn corners.  In rocket engine turbo pumps we do this on purpose with something called a "labyrinth seal".  With only an instantaneous driving pressure in the bore, and unless the breech plug fit is grossly poor, the gas will never make it out at the tang end of the plug.

All that said, my over wordy point is, do the best job you can fitting a plug, but it doesn't have to be perfect (for either performance or safety reasons).  As Hungry Horse says the old time plugs worked fine and were far, far less precise than anything the barrel makers of today produce.  Life is way too short to spend hours or days on a level of precision not required to do the job.

Just my thoughts
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline okawbow

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2020, 01:34:57 AM »
Amen! And I might add that I do not think the plug needs to be so tight that it requires a 3’ cheater bar to loosen it.
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2020, 03:26:12 PM »
What Long John said. This is a hobby for me.  It's history and the old methods that interest me. I know that there is a high level of skill required, but  Colonial Williamsburg and the gun shop there emulating the old ways are what inspires me to do what I do.  Safety is always a consideration, so I proof all my work.  So far I'm happy with the results.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2020, 04:53:17 AM »
 I highly recommend the videos from Hershel House, and Wallace Gusler, they work with mostly tools they made, shape them by eye, grind and hone them by eye, and turn out beautiful work. The guns they build have life, because they are built by eye, not micrometers, and lathes, and special honing jigs. There are builders that are often in the magazines who build all they’re guns like they are building a watch. These guns are technically perfect, but sterile, and to me boring.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2020, 05:59:18 AM »
HH, I am a machinist by trade and use a lathe for breeching barrels, because I have one and it would be silly for me to try to do it by hand. In the finished product you cannot tell whether it was breeched by machine or by hand. Just like you could not tell if the barrel was partially inletted by a router, as you have stated that you do, or completely inletted with chisels and scrapers. Breeching a barrel with hand tools is certianly very doable with the right tools, I just choose to use my lathe. I do believe that some do go to extremes that aren't necessary in breeching barrels, but we all do things a little differently. I also agree with others that you don't need a cheater to properly tighten a breech plug. I do agree with you that guns that are absolutely perfect are, to me, lifeless and sterile.
Mark
Mark Poley

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2020, 02:37:10 PM »
Guys,

I also have found that using a modern tap to thread a barrel breech is rather difficult to get straight without some sort of positive alignment setup.  However, when the breech threads are made using original tools the job is so very easy, nearly impossible to get  the threads misaligned.  Also, the original tools give a square shoulder at the bottom as in the video above.  That said, it may be a rather difficult job to use original tooling on a modern material barrel.  The low ductility of modern barrel materials may make the original tools difficult to use, the very high ductility of wrought iron makes barrel breeching easy.  Check out this older topic.

Jim

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33217.msg318587#msg318587

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2020, 10:16:50 PM »
Pennsylvania Dutchman said it better than I did.  Since I have a lathe and know how to use it, that is the fastest most accurate way for me.  I have dived into the deep end of the gunsmithing tool pool.  No everyone can or wants to do that, I understand. 

Sure I could use may lathe to make a bunch of specialized tools to breech each caliber, but why?  My lathe can accommodate any caliber.  Special tools, boring bars and internal thread cutter are easy to make, cheap, and suitable for any caliber. 

I like the octagon collets in another post, neat.  Instead of using a plastic collar in the left side of the headstock I have a "spider" for my lathe. 

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Breech plugging the barrel
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2020, 11:00:58 PM »
  I'm by know means an expert.. But to quote a very good friend..Jack Duprey..the guns today are WAY over built..as to Hershel House video.. I still use his famous Tennessee Mountain lathe.  H.Horse is right..you can build any thing or do anything when building a muzzleloader. Without all the fancy tools. Nice to have but really not necessary..  Oldtravler