Unknown Lehigh

[far55]

I have looked through all my books, including Chandler's 2 patchbox books, and cannot find a match. Hopefully, someone here will recognize the patchbox or the engraving style. It has an open end nosecap and is a smooth rifle. It needs a lot of TLC. The side plate has no engraving, so with all other parts engraved, I'm sure it must be a replacement.  The engraving on the wear plate of a feather over a half circle is repeated on the top flat of the barrel on either side of the rear sight and at the muzzle. The missing inlays in the lower patch box side panel are some kind of brown material, maybe horn ? and it looks like ivory in the tow plate.  Any Ideas ? Thanks, Roland

[Shreckmeister]

Deemer, Hawk influence

[mr. no gold]

Have to agree with Schreck on the maker; if not either then certainly made in that school. Lots of Hawk in the gun, but without his mark, nothing can be proven. Well anyway, what a screamer of a good gun. Big time candidate for some conservation/reasonable restoration. Thank you for bring it in to be admired! Lots to like about this one!
Dick

[WESTbury]

If you have not already done so, check out both Deemer and Hawk in the Bruce Miller Library on this forum. The Library is one of the many great resources we have on the LRF.

[far55]

A friend showed me a photo in the book" Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" by James R. Johnston. There is a  rifle attributed to Crupret Weaver, which also has some similarities. I don't have that book, and have not heard of him before. Is he from the same area as Hawk and Deemer ? Thanks, Roland

[homerifle]

Deemer, Hawk influence

My first thoughts too. Great gun thanks for showing!

[Shreckmeister]

Can we see the lock and barrel engraving?

[far55]

Here are a couple more photos. I just noticed that there is the same barrel engraving on both sides of each sight. Any ideas what the material is in the patchbox cutouts and inlay under the cheek piece ?  The lock is a busted up ill fitting replacement. I neglected to get a photo of the tang and top of the wrist which is missing it's silver oval inlay, just the 2 nails are left.    Roland










pic uploader

[far55]

Forgot to add: .44 caliber, 42-3/4" barrel, .925 at the breech, and about .790 at the muzzle, straight taper

[B.Barker]

Very cool rifle. Wish it still had the lid on the patch box.

[Shreckmeister]

I would say it’s horn in the cutouts. You would think they would have taken better care of such a nice rifle

[Marcruger]

Still, a neat rifle.  I cannot imagine shooting it with those raised tack heads under my cheekbone.  Yikes. 

[Buck]

far55,

That is a great rifle.

Buck

[jdm]

I like this rifle!!! Very cool.  If I had to choose  between Deemer and Hawk  I'd lean more towards Hawk . Deemer was not as good of engraver as Hawk.  The engraving on this gun is nicely done. However, more likely  it might  go in the direction of one of the Young family . Henry or John.  The Young's liked to do long ramrod pipes .
Do you have a picture of the lock bolt plate?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I very strongly suspect that's a Young rifle.  Great piece, and the inlays sure look like some form of horn to my eye.

[Buck]

Jim - Eric,

What is the black (onyx) stone indigenous to the area around Easton that is typically found in the brass work piercings of that area?

Buck

[far55]

I think this might have been changed when the lock was changed. No engraving at all. The small heart shaped inlays are silver. The trigger design may be a clue also. Roland

[mr. no gold]

You know, this looks like a classic example of letting the kids play with great grandpa's old rille. Happened many times and brought harm to many a good rifle. Still and all, just a great piece and worth every penny of restoration costs that you may decide to invest. Thanks for the extra photos.
Dick

[JTR]

I agree, that's a fine rifle, and with some careful work could be outstanding, and still maintain its character.
John

[homerifle]

You know, this looks like a classic example of letting the kids play with great grandpa's old rille. Happened many times and brought harm to many a good rifle. Still and all, just a great piece and worth every penny of restoration costs that you may decide to invest. Thanks for the extra photos.
Dick

How true!  This happened years ago. A friend of mine had a huge collection of Kentucky's  and  quite often his only grandson could be found straddling a rifle and dragging it around like he was riding a horse.

[far55]

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53496.0   I found this post from March 13, 2019 By cshersch.  Looks like same trigger, trigger guard rear sight and entry thimble, but it sure looks like one of Hawks patch boxes. I have not pulled the nailed on cover off of the patchbox yet, but there is no evidence of a release button in the buttplate  Roland

[JTR]

Try to find some good pictures of a known Deemer, and compare the engraving style, details, cuts, etc, and compare those with your rifle.
Here's a link to a JD (Deemer) in the Library here. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28542.msg272608#msg272608

The unengraved side plate isn't necessarily a replacement. How does it fit? Same color brass?

Also look for Roth as the maker.

Judging by the engraving, it's not a Nicolas Hawk.

John
 

[jdm]

I'm with JTR on the side plate . It needs closer examination. That type of side plate is one of the characteristic's of longrifle schools from Eastern  Northampton county.   Deemer  is one of the makers who used it. I  still  don't think he's  the maker of yours. In my opinion the engraving on the box is of  a higher quality  than his.  The side plate if it is a replacement may have been made to fit the existing cut out for the original one
 These are not the opinions of an expert, just my thoughts which  I hope helps you in your search. Regardless, if the maker is not identified it is still a very nice find.   Jim

[far55]

I have looked through the photos on this site and did an online search, and did not find many Deemer guns, but the few I found did not have engraved sideplates either. With this gun engraved almost every where else, I figured it was a replacement, but maybe that was his style. I am really surprised at the quality of this gun when built that it was not signed. One thing I did not mention, there seems to be a piece of leather ? glued to the end of the ramrod kinda like a tip on a pool cue.  I know the Hawk gunshop has been reconstructed,but have not been there yet. I suppose the gathering they have there has been canceled for this year ?  Also, If not Hawk or Deemer, did Hawk have any other known apprentices ?  Thank you all for your responses and getting me headed in the right direction for more research.    Roland

[far55]

Ok, What little I could find on the Roth connection( on line) may have been in Hawks later years ? I found one photo of a Roth swivel barrel, but it had no engraving and a totally different patchbox. I also checked the Young rifles on my KRA disc, but did not find much comparable there.  Roland